Converting a non-Dialog FPNC machine to Dialog

[rimcanyon]

Basic question: when the FPNC machines came out, they were equipped with a variety of controls, 3M, Grundig (Dialog), Hurco, and others. How much of the machine was the same between two machines with different controls? i.e. did all Deckel FP2NC's come with the same servos, regardless of control? Were the hydraulic pump and valves all identical between machines? etc. etc.

The reason I ask the question is to try and understand what would be involved to take a Hurco or 3M machine and convert it to Dialog. If I had a Dialog machine with a good control but worn slides, would it be feasible to transfer the control to a 3M or Hurco machine that was very little used?

 

[DeadMahoDude]

3M likely has linear scales, Hurco don't know.
Apart from linear scales vs encoders and control keyboard... everything likely is the same.
3M and Hurco probably also have SPS, instead of NPP90... box, on D3/4
Hydraulics and drawbar is 99% the same, on all machines, Servo doesn't matter, even if different, they all had analog 0-10V input back then.
3M fully upgraded isn't such a bad control, PC based Hurco kinda sucks, from what I know.

 

[Mud]

3M likely has linear scales,

Mine does.

 

[Martin P]

I think the base machines are the same, but everything else is different. So you are not swapping the control on to a machine, you are swapping the machine on to a control. You need the complete cabinet, console and ALL the harnesses.
I have parted out two 3M machines and will part out a flip head D4 this summer.

 

[Martin P]

I found it interesting that the 3M "control" housings have a casting logo "GE" in them and are slightly different from the Dialog units.
I suspect that Siemens supplied them to Deckel with the control as a set, eventhough there is almost nothing in them. The actual control is all in the big cabinet.
The Siemens control supposedly was only introduced by Deckel on their machines because Siemens would not buy Deckels without their control.
I was impressed by the 3M, but also intimidated.
In Germany Deckel 3M machines are being parted out by now with no fixing attempts.

 

[AlfaGTA]

There might be additional issues.
If the swap machines are both the same overall model type (FP_NC to FP_NC) that presents issues already discussed
However if of unlike models, say FP_NC to an FP_A then the game is totally changed.
The “A” machines have a two speed gearbox and inverter to control spindle seeds. A Dialog control won ‘t be able to run that spindle, and the control off the “A” machine control would not be able to shift the full gearbox on the FP_NC.
Cheers Ross

 

[rimcanyon]

Well, the Hurco fp4A that prompted the question got sold (for $315...), so now its purely for information, since it expands the options of what I can do with my parts machine.

Martin, if the 3M machines are being sold for parts instead of fixing, is anyone making the effort to convert those machines to Dialog, or is it too much work for too little gain?

 

[rimcanyon]

3M likely has linear scales, Hurco don't know.
Apart from linear scales vs encoders and control keyboard...

I'm not sure I understand the difference. I thought all FPNC machines use linear scales, and the scales have a machine zero encoded. But I am not aware of the distinctions between different types. I have always wished that my FP2NC would display the same coordinates after being powered off as when it was last shut down.

 

[AlfaGTA]

The FP_NC’s that are Dialog, 3M and Contour all use linear glass scales (Heidenhain)
Not sure that the Hurco fitted machines are so fitted.
Not all CNC’s use linear scales, fact is that it’s the exception rather than the rule.
As to”homing” with the Dialog control, the mechanics go like this.
You select mode”3”.
Press the axis plus button on the desired axis (can select any or all) ,the button will illuminate.
Press the cycle start button.
The selected axis will rapid in the plus direction till it reaches the first limit switch. (Cancels rapid)
The axis then moves (feed) till the control reads the hard reference mark on the scale (there is only one on the scale)
Once the control senses the reference point the feed stops, and the axis display is reset to 0000.
Normally from here the operator would move the machine to reference on the part. Edge find, or indicate a feature.
Once the part reference is set, you should record the now displayed position. This is actually the distance from the reference point on the scale.
Then the operator can reset the display(mode 2) to reflect the location of the part start point. Generally 0000.

If you are using machine indexed tooling such as a fixture plate it would be possible to always have the same position from the reference point so that the move from that zero would always be the same.

In ever of a power failure or full shutdown, the part can be re-zeroed by doing the reference move and then doing a programmed move (mode7)
Using the distance previously derived on the initial part setup.

Me personally, I rarely use the reference move.
I just turn the machine on (control power) indicate the part, set the registers to zero and run the part.
Should be noted here that I never (maintenance excepted) turn the main power off. That means that the display and scales are always on. And as such never loose position except in the case of a power failure.
I do this as it makes the control lots more reliable.

Cheers Ross

 

[Mud]

If you are using machine indexed tooling such as a fixture plate it would be possible to always have the same position from the reference point so that the move from that zero would always be the same.

In ever of a power failure or full shutdown, the part can be re-zeroed by doing the reference move and then doing a programmed move (mode7)
Using the distance previously derived on the initial part setup.

I really missed the saved machine location at first.
My machine has a C axis.I usually turn it off between jobs because there's a cooling fan on the motor and I don't want it to run for days for no reason. So at someone's suggestion I have a small program saved as #111 with the XY coordinates of the center of the C axis as a point to rapid to. I start the machine, zero it with Mode 3 as Ross described above, then run program 111 to locate the table under the spindle, then zero X and Y in mode 2. I'm now ready to run. Takes seconds to wait for the machine to move into position.
I have another small program with coordinates to locate the table in similar fashion. for a non-rotary job if I'm running multiple parts in a vise and don't want to have to pick up a location again if the machine gets shut off, takes a few keystrokes to update the XY numbers in that program when they change, like when moving the vise. Not perfect, but it works for me.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Not sure there is any advantage , but one could use parameter programming to run the position code. Insert the move values as “P” values run as John (Mud) describes above.

Cheers Ross

 

[rimcanyon]

I agree, it does not take a lot of steps to re-zero, but there are circumstances where it is quite inconvenient. Sometimes I cheat and don't bother, usually when I am making something where +/= .010" doesn't matter. e.g. I will move the machine to (0,0,0), clamp the axes, shut the machine off, then the next time I power it on I assume I am still at (0,0,0).

 

[AlfaGTA]

If I am doing something where I need to hold accuracy , I will move to a known datum , Then I leave everything on till I can return (next day) and continue. I always re-dial to confirm the location.
Verification is the key to precision.

Cheers Ross

 

[Martin P]

There might be additional issues.
If the swap machines are both the same overall model type (FP_NC to FP_NC) that presents issues already discussed
However if of unlike models, say FP_NC to an FP_A then the game is totally changed.
The “A” machines have a two speed gearbox and inverter to control spindle seeds. A Dialog control won ‘t be able to run that spindle, and the control off the “A” machine control would not be able to shift the full gearbox on the FP_NC.
Cheers Ross

I do not think that is correct about the 'A' machines.
The 'A' machines (Fp2/3/4A) introducted about 1987 and of which few made it to the US did not have inverter control spindle speeds (but the FP5A did).
The split of the lineup into the FP 'NC' and the 'A' series in about 1987 was surely to give different price options.
The NC series got the all new and different y ram and head, the new Bosch AC drive and spindle speed control and Dialog 11.
The A series stayed basically as the older type non-flip-head machine, retained the older Bosch drive and the Dialog/Contour 3 control. Later then D11.
Limited control options also as per customer request.
I have the NC and a series brochures as they were given to intersted parties at the time.
I would guess that in about 1988 20% of the machines were MA (low low cost 2.5 D), 70% were A and 10% were NC series.
Price wise I do not have much data, but would guess 75points, 100 points, 125 points.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Isn’t there a later FP_A family.
The machines that had the big electrical cabinet attached to the rear of the machine, were the spindle ram at 4000 rpm.
Believe this is what Dave was looking at.
I see an FP4A on Google circa 1991
Different head and looks to have a Dialog 11 control.
Looks way different from the earlier FP _NC,s
Cheers Ross

 

[DeadMahoDude]

There are a ton of different FP-A out there, those old garbage boat anchor FP3A with one servo, acme screws, a ton of clutches and CNC2301 or something.
Then FP-MA with shared servo for YZ, usually with Contour3, not much better.
FP-A with Contour3 and camelback vertical head that is basically the same as Dialog4 FP-NC without flip head.
FP5-A, basically same as FP5NC, but with DC-motor instead of AC-Spindle in NC, AFAIK early FP5NC had DC-motor as well.
Dialog11 FP-A, similar gearbox and same DC-servos as Dialog4 FP-NC, D11 FP-NC: AC-spindle and AC-servos

And you still have lottery, wether you get one with hardened Z-boxways or not, probability likely is higher on a NC, I guess.

 

[Martin P]

I was excluding the really early FP3A and 4A.
And the later FP A series only looks real different because they went to a sheet metal housing and a bigger and lower cabinet.

 

[Harri89]

Isn’t there a later FP_A family.
The machines that had the big electrical cabinet attached to the rear of the machine, were the spindle ram at 4000 rpm.
Believe this is what Dave was looking at.
I see an FP4A on Google circa 1991
Different head and looks to have a Dialog 11 control.
Looks way different from the earlier FP _NC,s
Cheers Ross

I have this kind of fp4a from 1987. It was with grundig contour 3 control. 4000rpm, quill only at vertical head.
Control is upgraded.

Electric cabinet is wide and sits under y axis sheet metal covers.
Servos on every axis.
Hardened Z ways, you can see it from top of the box way, theres some colorization from hardening process.

 

[diamondman]

Basic question: when the FPNC machines came out, they were equipped with a variety of controls, 3M, Grundig (Dialog), Hurco, and others. How much of the machine was the same between two machines with different controls? i.e. did all Deckel FP2NC's come with the same servos, regardless of control? Were the hydraulic pump and valves all identical between machines? etc. etc.

The reason I ask the question is to try and understand what would be involved to take a Hurco or 3M machine and convert it to Dialog. If I had a Dialog machine with a good control but worn slides, would it be feasible to transfer the control to a 3M or Hurco machine that was very little used?

I don't know anything about the Hurco controls but the 3M is the same as the Dialog mechanically.
Motors ,scales ball screws etc. The 3M has no hand wheels or the 90 deg. gearbox for the z hand-wheel ,or the switches the tell whether the hand-wheel is out or in. all that has to be moved as well as the wiring to the shift motors and the switches for over travel. The only one that works is the hard stop at the end , the slow down approach is set by parameters and that's why you have to reference to set the soft limit.
Basically you are rewiring the entire machine and adding hand-wheels. There are probably a few things I have missed but these are what I can think of right now.
Good luck ,
Dave