Could your shop make artillery rounds?

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

The articles posted in another thread had me thinking about this a lot. According to the article, the USA has only one factory in Scranton that makes about 11,000 155mm howitzer rounds each month. That's it!

So after reading the article and seeing their 70 year old process, I was thinking how I would do it differently.

Rather than use a specialized forging line setup, I would just brute force it with a warehouse full of basic 2 axis lathes turning and drilling. Get them delivered as 6-1/4 inch steel round bars, 20 inches long, weighing 170lbs each. Load them in with a lift strap, chuck the bar, and use the biggest drill the machine has torque for to drill out the ID, followed by another heavy boring cut. Then put a live center in the end and do the OD turning op. The final op would be drilling and threading the pointy end for the fuse. After that it's heat treat (if necessary) and paint. Not a particularly difficult part to make, just needs a couple big drills and boring bars. The shell end would be done similarly.

I figure that a shop that has 20 lathes, running 3 shifts daily with each part taking about 30 minutes of cycle time, output would be roughly 400 parts a day, or 12,000 a month if the place was running every day of the month. I don't think a medium sized warehouse with 20 lathes in it is particularly capital intensive, even brand new machines would put the total capital investment at like 2 million or so. But this is all just off the top of my head, I keep seeing articles about how the US military can't make enough ammunition and I can't help but think that a basic turning shop could probably get set up to make these howitzer rounds in a matter of weeks. The US is spending 420 million just to increase capacity, and they expect results 3 years from now......

 

[EmGo]

after reading the article and seeing their 70 year old process, I was thinking how I would do it differently.

Rather than use a specialized forging line setup, I would just brute force it with a warehouse full of basic 2 axis lathes turning and drilling.

Xiao di, xiao di, jeeze ... you need to work on your reading comprehension. Just read the article, all they need to do is pick up a bunch of used Haas verticals and just bolt a piece of steel to the table ! Nothing to it !

Sheesh. I teach you everything I know and you're still stupid

I don't think a medium sized warehouse with 20 lathes in it is particularly capital intensive, even brand new machines would put the total capital investment at like 2 million or so.... The US is spending 420 million just to increase capacity, and they expect results 3 years from now......

Let's think about this for a second ....

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

What you don't realize is how many warehouses the gov't has of that, 70 years of production adds up.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

What you don't realize is how many warehouses the gov't has of that, 70 years of production adds up.

They still have a lot in warehouses, yes, but they are refusing to send it to Ukraine because the rate of usage is unsustainable. The procurement people are desperate to increase production but they can't make it happen fast enough. That's why I think it makes sense to forgo the automated forging and heat treating lines and just brute force it with a bunch of readily available 2 axis lathes that already exist and can chew up steel round bar all day.

 

[EmGo]

That's why I think it makes sense to forgo the automated forging and heat treating lines and just brute force it with a bunch of readily available 2 axis lathes that already exist and can chew up steel round bar all day.

Another problem with your plan is, Haas lathes couldn't brute force themselves out of a wet paper bag. There's only a few 8CC or 10CC Cincinnatis left around, nowhere near enough to accomplish your program.

 

[Ries]

Machining artillery shells from solid bar? Seriously?
Forging is cheaper, faster, stronger.
And, my guess is it also allows for better results when the explosion occurs. They have been working on this technology for 2000 or 3000 years now.

 

[Overland]

Remember the images of rows of capstan / turret lathes from WW2, or maybe WW1 ?
Bob

 

[Bill D]

At the very least start with pipe not solid.
Bill D

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

Machining artillery shells from solid bar? Seriously?
Forging is cheaper, faster, stronger.
And, my guess is it also allows for better results when the explosion occurs. They have been working on this technology for 2000 or 3000 years now.

No doubt it's better for making near-net shapes, but the problem is that there's no time to waste; the US needs to increase production of howitzer rounds by a factor of ten ASAP. Those new, automated forging lines would take years to set up, and Ukraine can't wait. Whereas production from solid round bar can be implemented immediately with existing machinery.

A more detailed article said the forged shells have a 3 lb weight tolerance, which indicates that they're not actually that precise on the inside cavity. I wonder if automated zinc die casting machines could make these with a slightly different design spec, since the density is similar to steel.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

No doubt it's better for making near-net shapes, but the problem is that there's no time to waste; the US needs to increase production of howitzer rounds by a factor of ten ASAP.

What, so that Russia can bring in tactical nukes ? Are you crazy or just naive ? Ukraine is not going to join NATO. Period. Russia does not care if it destroys the world, it ain't gonna happen. And they have the capability.

Just don't go there. It's like punching Sonny Liston in the face.

Time for Plan B.

In fact a year ago was time for Plan B but the US is too stupid and doesn't give a damn how many Ukrainians get killed.

 

[Rob F.]

A more detailed article said the forged shells have a 3 lb weight tolerance, which indicates that they're not actually that precise on the inside cavity.

The 3 lb weight difference is probably more of an actual requirement than sloppy work to a broad tolerance as you are implying.

Besides that, the "war" is pretty much over, its just that the dumbshits in DC/UK/NATO have not figured that out yet. So it is pointless to prolong it, the only thing that benefits the DC/UK/NATO it they get one of their wet dreams to come true of slavs killing slavs with no real consequences for them, the instigators.

 

[Milland]

Besides that the "war" is pretty much over, its just that the dumbshits in DC/UK/NATO have not figured that out yet.

Umm, what? Mind giving a source for that?

On the OP's question, no, I don't have heavy enough CNC lathes to do the work. Nor a closed-die forging press, for that matter. Not sure whether there's practical reasons a forged body is better than one from bar when you're not turning out millions of them...

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

Well, I could probably put out a round every 2-3 weeks on my little Logan. Let the kids do it- they'll 3D print 'em!

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Recent video of the production assembly, if they are 30" or less in length, I could turn out 1 or 2 a day from bar stock, but the shipping out of here is going to be the killer on price. F' Putin.

 

[Garwood]

I agree forging is much faster, but I don't see why they couldn't be made from solid.

I suspect if we actually needed these shells yesterday we'd all be making them.

I'd wonder about there being enough 6" steel bar of whatever alloy is needed to make 100's of thousands of these things a month.

Along the lines of what Dalmationgirl61 said- If you guys haven't seen them with your own eyes you cannot fathom just how much shit the US military has in storage facilities all over the country. Acres upon acres under roof and underground. Facilities that aren't on maps and you'd never know existed if you didn't work there.

The US Navy has several spare props in stock for every propeller on every ship in the active and mothballed fleet. We're talking thousands of props 10 to 30' diameter spread strategically across facilities all around the globe. When I was in 20 years ago we had parts to put Battleships back in service.

Not to say we're prepared for whatever comes at us. Just that we have a lot of stuff.

 

[Milland]

When I was in 20 years ago we had parts to put Battleships back in service.
we have a lot of stuff.

The romantic in me wants to see New Jersey and the other battleships recalled to service.

The realist knows it's a waste of time and resources. I worry about any of the capital ships in times of war with a major power, too many sub and land-based missiles now that can take them out and would be damn difficult (impossible) to stop beforehand.

 

[Garwood]

The romantic in me wants to see New Jersey and the other battleships recalled to service.

The realist knows it's a waste of time and resources. I worry about any of the capital ships in times of war with a major power, too many sub and land-based missiles now that can take them out and would be damn difficult (impossible) to stop beforehand.

next time you look at a picture of a US Navy ship note the odd white R2D2 looking things placed all over outside the ship.

These are called CIWS or "sea wiz".

They fire 20mm tungsten infused depleted uranium rounds at a rate of 4500 rounds per minute and are really fucking good at disintegrating incoming missiles up to 5 miles away. Boy they make a mess out of small boats too.

I have seen hundreds of CIWS tests and never seen a miss.

Downside is they take a long time to reload.

So a few missiles- Ship is pretty safe. A dozen missiles- Your fucked.

EDIT: here's a video. The first small boat the CIWS is sweeping to lay down a wall of bullets. Skip to the 1:30 mark to see it tracking an aircraft/missile

 

[Milland]

Yeah, seen plenty of test of those on YT, as well as the land-based versions they use in Iraq and such. My concern is the hypersonics, as well as the RU supercavitating high-speed torpedoes. And, uh, nukes...

I've donated to the New Jersey museum, would like to visit it someday.

 

[William Payne]

There is a reason war production was so massive during WW2. Everything else either stopped or was rationed. How many cars were made from 1942-1945? Every factory that could be was transferred to war production. Everything else stopped.

 

[gwelo62]

The Germans made a few high-tech gizmos. Lots of average Shermans beat the Tigers, etc. The tables are now turned. We make the high-tech gizmos at obscene cost to a broke government. We are finding out that thousands of 'cheap and nasty' are going to win.

Does the army really need a new bullet and rifle? I read that the rifles will cost $2000 a piece. You can bet the Chinese dont pay near that for their rifles. How much does one Scranton shell cost vs a Peking or Sebastopol equivalent?

Back in the 70s I was told that the Germans had calculated that the average soldier would shoot a thousand rounds before being killed/wounded.