I'm guess a previous owner installed that belt because they didn't want to go through what I just have simply to change a belt. I'll be installing a heavy duty v-belt. any brand recommendations?That adjustable belt is in my opinion a piece of shit. Change that and see what happens to the washing machine.
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Craftsman / Atlas 101 A bit of a wobble
- Thread starter bumbino
- Start date
- Replies 60
- Views 2,424
Joe Michaels
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Location
- Shandaken, NY, USA
Dalmatiangirl61:
Great minds think alike. Only problem is that I am a stubborn dinosaur, unfamiliar with things like the 3-D printed spindle lock. I tend to do what I need to do in the way of making service tools and fixtures for jobs as they come along. I've probably reinvented the wheel quite a number of times as a result.
John:
I am glad you got the chuck removed and the headstock torn down. What I'd suggest is that you wash the spindle bearings with solvent and get rid of any old lubricant (assuming the bearings do not have seals or shields on them). If you can get the bearings cleaned of old lubricant, take them in your hands and gently try rotating the inner race (or 'cone' if a tapered roller bearing is used) while holding the outer race from turning. If you feel any sort of roughness or 'catching' as the inner race is turned, the bearing has failed. Not to the point of seizing or locking up, but to the point where the balls or rollers do not run smoothly on the races. This is usually accompanied by excessive play in the bearing. With the bearing cleaned out and held in your hand, try pushing the inner race side-to-side or wiggling it (if a ball bearing). You should not feel any play.
Your mention of the end float in the spindle seems to point to something being out of adjustment for setting end thrust or 'preload' on the spindle bearings. Your lathe may well have a tapered roller bearing on one spindle journal and a ball bearing on the other journal. There may be a threaded collar on the tail end of the spindle which is used to take up end play and set the preload on the roller bearing. If this collar has backed off a bit, the inner cone of the roller bearing as well as the caged rollers are kind of flopping around in the outer race. This would cause the spindle to 'orbit' rather than turn about its centerline. If your lathe has a roller bearing, take it apart and inspect it. It may be good for more use. Timken has all sorts of engineering data for the design and service life of their roller bearings. I've worked with their engineering data a few times over the years. The service life of a properly sized, properly installed, and properly maintained/lubed Timken roller bearing is astonishingly long, expressed in millions or billions of revolutions of the shaft journal it supports. It takes a lot to destroy or damage a Timken Roller Bearing in light duty/occasional service as would be the case with your lathe. So long as the races and rollers are not discolored (from overheating), not showing any pitting or scoring or other visible damage, you may be OK with the roller bearing.
Get hold of information as to the correct lubricant to use in the headstock spindle bearings. A lack of lubrication, or perhaps using too heavy a lubricant along with the ravages of time (the lathe is one year younger than me) which congeal lubricants or turn oils to varnish can ruin the bearings.
Great minds think alike. Only problem is that I am a stubborn dinosaur, unfamiliar with things like the 3-D printed spindle lock. I tend to do what I need to do in the way of making service tools and fixtures for jobs as they come along. I've probably reinvented the wheel quite a number of times as a result.
John:
I am glad you got the chuck removed and the headstock torn down. What I'd suggest is that you wash the spindle bearings with solvent and get rid of any old lubricant (assuming the bearings do not have seals or shields on them). If you can get the bearings cleaned of old lubricant, take them in your hands and gently try rotating the inner race (or 'cone' if a tapered roller bearing is used) while holding the outer race from turning. If you feel any sort of roughness or 'catching' as the inner race is turned, the bearing has failed. Not to the point of seizing or locking up, but to the point where the balls or rollers do not run smoothly on the races. This is usually accompanied by excessive play in the bearing. With the bearing cleaned out and held in your hand, try pushing the inner race side-to-side or wiggling it (if a ball bearing). You should not feel any play.
Your mention of the end float in the spindle seems to point to something being out of adjustment for setting end thrust or 'preload' on the spindle bearings. Your lathe may well have a tapered roller bearing on one spindle journal and a ball bearing on the other journal. There may be a threaded collar on the tail end of the spindle which is used to take up end play and set the preload on the roller bearing. If this collar has backed off a bit, the inner cone of the roller bearing as well as the caged rollers are kind of flopping around in the outer race. This would cause the spindle to 'orbit' rather than turn about its centerline. If your lathe has a roller bearing, take it apart and inspect it. It may be good for more use. Timken has all sorts of engineering data for the design and service life of their roller bearings. I've worked with their engineering data a few times over the years. The service life of a properly sized, properly installed, and properly maintained/lubed Timken roller bearing is astonishingly long, expressed in millions or billions of revolutions of the shaft journal it supports. It takes a lot to destroy or damage a Timken Roller Bearing in light duty/occasional service as would be the case with your lathe. So long as the races and rollers are not discolored (from overheating), not showing any pitting or scoring or other visible damage, you may be OK with the roller bearing.
Get hold of information as to the correct lubricant to use in the headstock spindle bearings. A lack of lubrication, or perhaps using too heavy a lubricant along with the ravages of time (the lathe is one year younger than me) which congeal lubricants or turn oils to varnish can ruin the bearings.
Jim Christie
Titanium
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
- Location
- L'Orignal, Ontario Canada
I started this before you got your chuck off and spindle apart and just got back to it now.
If your lathe has been taken apart at some point in the past perhaps some of the end float may be caused by the 9-32 threaded end collar not being tight enough or if it is tight one or more of the parts on the spindle may not be shouldering up in their proper place.
Perhaps a space is missing or in the wrong position etc.
While there may be some wear in the bearings I would suspect that if the other parts that go on the spindle the end collar could be tightened up to eliminate the float.
You don't want it so too tight to damage the bearings just enough to eliminate the end float.
You might want to check if you can get the current bearings in place and test the run out and end play and be sure there are no other issues before ordering new bearings.
Those bearings may be not so bad if they are adjusted properly .
I think there is a user manual on archive.org or the Hathi Trust online library for those machines that may tell how to set the preload on the bearings .
I can't look for it right now.
Someone else may know and post about that later.
Vintage machinery has several parts books for Craftsman machines.
This appears to be the one for yours and shows how it should be put together.
also a catalogue picture on page 28
With regards to belts you may want to consider Gates or other industrial belt suppliers .
If I remember you want to use the 4L size on these,. since they are strong enough for that size if machine and are more flexible taking less power to drive around the smallest diameter pulleys and make changing steps easier.
The width of the pulley grooves will dictate the belt width.
Someone may correct me on this since it is a long time since I had anything to do with these machines.
P.S. I didn't see Joe Michaels' post before I posted this he has expressed my thoughts more clearly than I did.
I found the manual I was looking for and it tells about setting up the Timken bearings here
Jim
If your lathe has been taken apart at some point in the past perhaps some of the end float may be caused by the 9-32 threaded end collar not being tight enough or if it is tight one or more of the parts on the spindle may not be shouldering up in their proper place.
Perhaps a space is missing or in the wrong position etc.
While there may be some wear in the bearings I would suspect that if the other parts that go on the spindle the end collar could be tightened up to eliminate the float.
You don't want it so too tight to damage the bearings just enough to eliminate the end float.
You might want to check if you can get the current bearings in place and test the run out and end play and be sure there are no other issues before ordering new bearings.
Those bearings may be not so bad if they are adjusted properly .
I think there is a user manual on archive.org or the Hathi Trust online library for those machines that may tell how to set the preload on the bearings .
I can't look for it right now.
Someone else may know and post about that later.
Vintage machinery has several parts books for Craftsman machines.
This appears to be the one for yours and shows how it should be put together.
also a catalogue picture on page 28
With regards to belts you may want to consider Gates or other industrial belt suppliers .
If I remember you want to use the 4L size on these,. since they are strong enough for that size if machine and are more flexible taking less power to drive around the smallest diameter pulleys and make changing steps easier.
The width of the pulley grooves will dictate the belt width.
Someone may correct me on this since it is a long time since I had anything to do with these machines.
P.S. I didn't see Joe Michaels' post before I posted this he has expressed my thoughts more clearly than I did.
I found the manual I was looking for and it tells about setting up the Timken bearings here
Manual of Lathe Operation and Machinists Table (1937) : Engineering Department Atlas Press Company : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
How to use a lathe. (Dark line in middle from tape used to protect scanner from scratches from metal wire) No Copyright renewal found in Stanford or LOC online...
archive.org
Jim
Last edited:
Hey Joe, Hey Jim. Thank you both for the detailed advice. I had found information on adjusting spindle runout using that threaded ring / round nut at the rear of the headstock. I had zero runout though so I assumed that wouldn't help at all. Thinking now I wish I had at least tried that.
Bearings are Timken
Rear (near back gear) Bearing 14125-A $20
Rear Race 14276-B $50
Front (near chuck) Bearing 16150 $70
Front Race 16284-B $200
I have found a front race with model 16284-3 on ebay but can't locate that part on the Timken website. What is the -B designation?
These are cone bearings. The bearings themselves have some wiggle and play but there are really no visible signs of wear or damage to the bearings or the outer race.
I had looked at many manuals on the vintage machinery website but just couldn't locate the correct one. Thank you Jim!
Bearings are Timken
Rear (near back gear) Bearing 14125-A $20
Rear Race 14276-B $50
Front (near chuck) Bearing 16150 $70
Front Race 16284-B $200
I have found a front race with model 16284-3 on ebay but can't locate that part on the Timken website. What is the -B designation?
These are cone bearings. The bearings themselves have some wiggle and play but there are really no visible signs of wear or damage to the bearings or the outer race.
I had looked at many manuals on the vintage machinery website but just couldn't locate the correct one. Thank you Jim!
Rob F.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2012
- Location
- California, Central Coast
Those are both tapered roller bearings? Think of it as re doing the wheel bearings on a car, you dont put in new ones unless the old ones are bad, (scored, discolored etc) You say yours look nice, If it were me I would make sure they are very clean, properly lube them and reinstall with the correct preload on them and see what you get. My bet is it will be good if I understood your posts correctly.
That ebay bearing could be a -B with the vertical leg wore off or light to begin with it would look like a -3
That ebay bearing could be a -B with the vertical leg wore off or light to begin with it would look like a -3
Ok. So I was thinking the same thing. After some earlier advice I've decided to clean the bearings and all other parts very well. Lube them up with the prescribed 10W motor oil and reassemble. I'm thinking that from years of gunk and the preload maybe being off a bit is what caused the problem.
I've also found that the -A and -B in my race models indicates that they are flanged. The -3 is an indicator of precision. Mine are clearly a -A and -B. The one I'm seeing on ebay as a -3 is new old stock and is definitely a -3. It has no -B and has no flange.
I'm wondering if anyone knows of a cross referencing system for bearings though in case I do decide to replace them.
Thanks again,
John
rons
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Location
- California, USA
Gates. You need to check the drive train, it may not be the belt. But they don't cost that much.
jgestar
Aluminum
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2013
- Location
- Holly Springs, NC
Your photos show a rather 'dry' lathe. Oil early, oil often, oil everywhere. If your lathe is dripping very slowly, apply more oil.
Before you do anything else, go to a local autoparts store. Buy a gallon of ISO32 or ISO46 hydraulic oil and a couple of oiler cans. Start with the lubrication directions given in this 12" lathe chart. Anywhere that metal slides, turns, or rubs, oil it daily. Check the headstock oil cups often. If they are less than half full - fill them up. The cups should drain down at least once per day.
Be generous. He that dies with the most oil does not win. Their tools lose too.
Tom
john.k
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2012
- Location
- Brisbane Qld Australia
Surely ,the chuck is out of balance ,and that is what is causing the wobble.
You should be able to just type Timken 14125-A cross & rinse repeat for the other bearing & the 2 races . I don't know which lathe it is since there were several lathes that had the 101 prefix model # .
Looking at the few 101 lathe manuals I looked at I'm not seeing a thrust bearing on that spindle , is that right ?
animal
Looking at the few 101 lathe manuals I looked at I'm not seeing a thrust bearing on that spindle , is that right ?
TIMKEN 14125A-14274A tapered roller bearings - Nodes bearing
TIMKEN 14125A-14274A bearing, Tapered roller bearings, Dimensions:31.750mm(1.2500 in) x 68.956mm(2.7148 in) x 19.845mm(0.7813 in)
www.nodeshk.com
dalmatiangirl61
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2011
- Location
- BFE Nevada/San Marcos Tx
For me to advocate for anything plastic is quite uncharacteristic, but when it works........ I had a lathe with a stuck chuck, jacked with it for hours, multiple times, over several years. In an act of desperation ordered one of those locks, one look out of the box and my brain said "this is not going to work", a minute later the chuck was off.
It's snake oil with out the snake . I've seen lot's of folks say their great in some of the io groups I frequent . Folks print them for Craftsman , Logan & South Bend & probably more lathes . Looks like the one for the craftsman takes hour 23 minutes to print .
animal
animal
Ladies and Gentlemen.... We have lift off! I have fully serviced the headstock and she's running beautifully. I may post a pic and vid tomorrow, but for now I'm exhausted, but still super pumped! Thank you all for the help and for allowing my post here.
Every part of the headstock was soaked in kerosene for several hours and meticulously scrubbed with a small wire brush. Evacuated with compressed air, wiped down with shop towels and well lubricated. I replaced the adjustable belt with a heavy duty v-belt. Unfortunately I'm impatient so I didn't order one of the recommended brands. It is though a quality drive belt. I must say that installing that belt was honestly more work than rebuilding the headstock. In the process though I did find that the oilers on the swing we 100% useless. The brass sleeves had no holes for the oil to run through. Putting oil in the fill hole did absolutely nothing. So they're drilled and functional now.
I did find also that the nut attached to the leadscrew in the base of the carriage is badly worn as well. $35 and I have a new one, so that's on the way now. As is cutting a section of steel pipe the difference from one side of the wall to the other is a mere 0.005 inches. I assume that will get knocked down a bit more with the new carriage nut.
I know for all of you pros it may not sound like much and my lathe may be a dinky thing compared to what you all run, but I am absolutely stoked.
Thanks again,
John
Every part of the headstock was soaked in kerosene for several hours and meticulously scrubbed with a small wire brush. Evacuated with compressed air, wiped down with shop towels and well lubricated. I replaced the adjustable belt with a heavy duty v-belt. Unfortunately I'm impatient so I didn't order one of the recommended brands. It is though a quality drive belt. I must say that installing that belt was honestly more work than rebuilding the headstock. In the process though I did find that the oilers on the swing we 100% useless. The brass sleeves had no holes for the oil to run through. Putting oil in the fill hole did absolutely nothing. So they're drilled and functional now.
I did find also that the nut attached to the leadscrew in the base of the carriage is badly worn as well. $35 and I have a new one, so that's on the way now. As is cutting a section of steel pipe the difference from one side of the wall to the other is a mere 0.005 inches. I assume that will get knocked down a bit more with the new carriage nut.
I know for all of you pros it may not sound like much and my lathe may be a dinky thing compared to what you all run, but I am absolutely stoked.
Thanks again,
John
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
If you spindle bearings are ok then once you get into the meat of a mild steel, brass or aluminum part the tool/cutter/bit/insert has to be finger nail shaving sharp, the tool geometry has to have the angles that are correct for the material, and a radius can help surface finish.,, and the part has to be held solidly with chuck jaws that are not tapering the wrong way, the part sticking out far. the out end of the part on a center can make a solid set up.
If the bit edge is wrong on a light duty lathe cutting forces build up to finally able to penetrate the material, then a spring forward to make a chip, and then another build up of pressure, resulting in all kinds of problems.
OPS I see you solved your problems, Good.
Buck
If the bit edge is wrong on a light duty lathe cutting forces build up to finally able to penetrate the material, then a spring forward to make a chip, and then another build up of pressure, resulting in all kinds of problems.
OPS I see you solved your problems, Good.
Buck
Joe Michaels
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Location
- Shandaken, NY, USA
John:
I am happy to read that you got your lathe up and running. It is a wonderful learning experience for you, and makes using the lathe all the more special.
Regardless of the manufacturer of your lathe and whether it is light duty, hobby-grade, or some heavy duty engine lathe, you did what a lot of 'armchair critics'
don't do: namely, you followed through and have a running lathe to show for it. Congratulations !
As for the countershaft (which is what, I suspect, you meant by 'swing') bearings: there is a chance these were made of "Oilite". Oilite is a porous bronze material that is impregnated with oil when it is made. The oilers would dribble oil onto one spot on the Oilite bushings and it would then "wick" or seep into the porous structure of the Oilite to lube the shaft journals. No harm done in drilling oil holes. Oilite is a patent name. It consists of granular particles of bronze which are compressed in a mold and sintered (heated to just the edge of the melting point). This sintering fuses the bronze granules together at their contact points, leaving voids in the resulting product.
After that, the Oilite material is put into an autoclave and the air is evacuated from it. Oil is then run into the autoclave and pressurized so it fills all the voids in the Oilite bronze 'matrix'. This Oilite material is widely used in 'permanently lubricated' bronze bushings, often in small appliance motors and cheap power tools.
Do you have a thread chasing dial for your lathe ? In my shop, amidst a load of odds and ends, I have a thread chasing dial off an Atlas lathe. No idea of size of the lathe/model. You are welcome to it if you want it. Every little bit of accumulation leaving my shop makes my wife happy and makes me happy to see it go to guys like yourself.
I am happy to read that you got your lathe up and running. It is a wonderful learning experience for you, and makes using the lathe all the more special.
Regardless of the manufacturer of your lathe and whether it is light duty, hobby-grade, or some heavy duty engine lathe, you did what a lot of 'armchair critics'
don't do: namely, you followed through and have a running lathe to show for it. Congratulations !
As for the countershaft (which is what, I suspect, you meant by 'swing') bearings: there is a chance these were made of "Oilite". Oilite is a porous bronze material that is impregnated with oil when it is made. The oilers would dribble oil onto one spot on the Oilite bushings and it would then "wick" or seep into the porous structure of the Oilite to lube the shaft journals. No harm done in drilling oil holes. Oilite is a patent name. It consists of granular particles of bronze which are compressed in a mold and sintered (heated to just the edge of the melting point). This sintering fuses the bronze granules together at their contact points, leaving voids in the resulting product.
After that, the Oilite material is put into an autoclave and the air is evacuated from it. Oil is then run into the autoclave and pressurized so it fills all the voids in the Oilite bronze 'matrix'. This Oilite material is widely used in 'permanently lubricated' bronze bushings, often in small appliance motors and cheap power tools.
Do you have a thread chasing dial for your lathe ? In my shop, amidst a load of odds and ends, I have a thread chasing dial off an Atlas lathe. No idea of size of the lathe/model. You are welcome to it if you want it. Every little bit of accumulation leaving my shop makes my wife happy and makes me happy to see it go to guys like yourself.
Hey Joe. Thank you very much for the kind words.
Well I imagine you're correct about the seeping bronze bushings, but they sure were in need of a good cleaning as was the shaft that spins within them. I assumed it was a build up of grime being baked on with heat from lack of lubrication. lol. Well they sure oil well now.
As for the thread chasing dial. I'm pretty sure the little guy on the right is what you're referring to. I'm guessing like everything else these can become worn so I would certainly welcome a spare. I love having spare parts. If you really want to get rid of it please send me a message and we can iron out the details.
@michiganbuck Thanks for the tool tip. Not sure if you can tell from the video I posted back on page one, but the part I cut turned blue. lol. It wasn't like that at first. I did grind a new tool with proper angles from an hss blank but after all the wobbled cuts I tried another no so sharp tool and maybe a little too much force.
Now that I'm up and running I'll get more into learning about tooling. I did watch a short video last week just to get me started in the right direction and he had mentioned some literature on the subject. I'll go back and find that and get a hold of said literature.
Again, Thank you all very much.
All the best,
John
Way to go !
Learn how to sharpen HSS , so many people when they get a first lathe think then need to have carbide . If ya really want to get away from grinding HSS blanks get a set of HS inserts & holders from AR Warner , you'll be impressed with what ya can do with them . Get your self some fine India stones or a diamond hone , Learn how to use those & you'll be cuttin things like butter .The fun is just beginning .
animal
Learn how to sharpen HSS , so many people when they get a first lathe think then need to have carbide . If ya really want to get away from grinding HSS blanks get a set of HS inserts & holders from AR Warner , you'll be impressed with what ya can do with them . Get your self some fine India stones or a diamond hone , Learn how to use those & you'll be cuttin things like butter .The fun is just beginning .
animal
I have one blank hss tool un-ground that came with the machine. Did a little research and ground it into a working tool on my belt grinder. It cuts pretty well, but I know with practice it'll get better. I was considering some chinese hss blanks from ebay but though better to pay up at grainger. Joe Michaels told me he uses the chinese blanks so if they're good enough for a seasoned machinist they're certainly good enough for me.
Now my lathe also came with a variety of brand new carbide inserts, some square, some triangular and another shape that I don't recall, but no holder! I've been told that for my machine, my projects and skill level that those would really not do me much good. I'm still gonna find some holders for them and give'em a shot.
I'll be searching ebay for some stones shortly. Thanks for the info!
Best regards,
John
Rob F.
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2012
- Location
- California, Central Coast
If you are not threading there is no real need to have the chasing dial engaged with the leadscrew. Loosen the sq head bolt and swing it forward a little so it clears the leadscrew and then re engage it when you need to cut threads.
john.k
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2012
- Location
- Brisbane Qld Australia
The best value small lathe cutting tools are the Chinese carbide insert ones meant for cutting aluminium.........get a full set and spare inserts ,and you wont look back.
