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Custom built large 4th axis

All your motor specs don't mean a whole lot to me.
I'm a machanic, not an electrical engineer, but I found this part - that does make perfect sense to me:

Shaft Diameter0.500 in (12.70 mm)
Weight7.3 lb (3.3 kg)


THAT motor, and undoubtedly the amp that goes with it - is nowhere even in the parking lot of the ballpark to doo what you are after. You are at best setting in the sports bar downtown watching the game - AT BEST!

To doo what you are envissioning, you would be looking at a 60 - 100# motor with a 1"+ shaft - starting at $2500!
That's what I know and understand....

You could likely make it work if you go with the worm drive, but there's not room for nearly enough gear reduction to get that motor to run as you want.

Go find a used manual table and adapt your motor!
(worm drive)



Edit:

That very well may work on your plasma table, but not on your mill.


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
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This is the difference between professional and ... home shop? or "backyard git'er done"? engineering.

Having several yuasa indexers here, although nothing that big, there's always a need for a brake except for small stuff. I always desire more rigidity and all my indexers have brakes.

Can't imagine a huge chuck with no brake. Even if you had a really high gear ratio.


Ox, I assure you it WILL "get built", but if he ever posts results of the build, they will be exaggerated. And if someone else in industry ended up getting this indexer, they would probably call it junk.



The only thing I see when I read this thread is people saying to build it beefy as hell, and the OP suggesting the weakest build possible will outperform anything.

I like the idea of waiting for a huge one at auction, too.
I'm not here for a egotrip , we are a machine shop that has been serving Canadian market for over 43 years , if we ever screw anything up, which can happen from time to time we take it back and fix it. We specialize in making and repairing large hydraulic cylinders and we weld lots and I mean lots of things usually for mines. We have hydraulic rotary axis that is using 3000psi to turn a Caterpillar frontloader rim to be bored on horizontal boring mill. We have four CNC machines at this point two mills, a lathe and plasma table that is just being completed these days. Parallel with all the other work we do this 4th axis is our weekend/evening project , it has no urgency to be built , it would be nice to have but hardly necessary for 90% of work we do at this point. So we're not inventing anything or trying to sell it. I have no problem posting it here even if it doesn't work or has good or bad performance, to us it bears no difference with initial results as we have no issue changing a design and make it work for our needs. I don't understand where are all this assumptions coming from about "" and exaggeration and putting it up for sale etc. I am not suggesting anything about the performance, we have our assumptions based on hardware we have built in the past and problems and solutions we came up with. I came here to ask to see if anyone has built something similar and how they went about it, where they got their parts from etc etc , that's it!
 

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You're ignoring that your linear axes are all driven with some other gear or screw system on top of the belt drive system. The reason your table doesn't get backdriven by cutting forces is that the table is driven by a screw.

The design you have for your rotary is the belt directly driving the tube. That would be the equivalent of removing the screws from the mill table and trying to move the table directly, the way they do it on low-buck 3D printers. You'd quickly discover that the belt can't hold against much force at all, will suffer from its own elasticity and is going to do all kinds of unwanted motion.
Ok, what is your suggestion?
 
I came here to ask to see if anyone has built something similar and how they went about it, where they got their parts from etc etc , that's it!


Well I did that, 2wice.


----------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
All your motor specs don't mean a whole lot to me.
I'm a machanic, not an electrical engineer, but I found this part - that does make perfect sense to me:

Shaft Diameter0.500 in (12.70 mm)
Weight7.3 lb (3.3 kg)


THAT motor, and undoubtedly the amp that goes with it - is nowhere even in the parking lot of the ballpark to doo what you are after. You are at best setting in the sports bar downtown watching the game - AT BEST!

To doo what you are envissioning, you would be looking at a 60 - 100# motor with a 1"+ shaft - starting at $2500!
That's what I know and understand....

You could likely make it work if you go with the worm drive, but there's not room for nearly enough gear reduction to get that motor to run as you want.

Go find a used manual table and adapt your motor!
(worm drive)



Edit:

That very well may work on your plasma table, but not on your mill.


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
We do have this in the shop kicking around, it's currently hydraulic driven manually. I could get a gearbox for the motor
 

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My Yuasa (320 or 330?) has a 3.5" through hole. I think it's 2010-ish vintage.
Eh, yeah, yuasa's always changing their crap up.

The manual i quoted has a date of 2019. I wouldn't even be certain that the sizes listed are correct.

The ebay listing that said 105mm is a "new" indexer.
 
Well I did that, 2wice.


----------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
Got this one apart today, maybe you're right to go about it with a worm screw , just wonder where can i get one with matching gear for my sized spindle?
 

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I posted pics of the Martin Sprocket catalog above.
Not saying that this is the right page for your needs, but you should be within spitt'n distance.

That is a bit of a dated catalog as I've had it since 1990, but not too sure much has changed in that field since then?

I would think that they have that stuff online now.

You can't buy direct, but Applied Industrial Technologies (screams a 1990's name eh?) (Detroit Ball Bearing) or likely Motion Industries, or ....????

You would want to get one with a solid web if possible, but you're not going to find one that is ready bolt in.
You will have to modify the "stock standard" to fit your application.



1693439991015.png



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I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
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I showed you how to modify the worm wheel in pics in the link in post #35 on this thread.


----------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
I posted pics of the Martin Sprocket catalog above.
Not saying that this is the right page for your needs, but you should be within spitt'n distance.

That is a bit of a dated catalog as I've had it since 1990, but not too sure much has changed in that field since then?

I would think that they have that stuff online now.

You can't buy direct, but Applied Industrial Technologies (screams a 1990's name eh?) (Detroit Ball Bearing) or likely Motion Industries, or ....????

You would want to get one with a solid web if possible, but you're not going to find one that is ready bolt in.
You will have to modify the "stock standard" to fit your application.



View attachment 407077



-------------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
I'll have to give them a shout this week and see if they have something that would fit around my spindle pipe and if they'd ship to Canada.
Thank you!
 
Well, my guess is that aboot anything with a pitch diameter 3" or more larger than your bore size* could be made to work. Like on the pages shown, there is 2 different 8" wheels. The next page has a finer pitch yet (40 tooth) and there it has a 7.6" pitch diameter.

Personally - I'd say that this project is likely over your head**, but we have given you enough info for you to run with - IF you are up to the task.

I still recommend that you put your motor on a manual table and forget building anything.


* Depending on the web design. NOT spoked for sure!
"web" = the space between the hub diameter and the outer wheel diameter.

** Not meaning to belittle you. I am sure that you are most likely a better welder than I am.
But this is not a project for most novice's. This is not bolt and weld together common parts type job.


Nothing wrong with grafting a motor where a hand-wheel once lived.
Got that T-shirt as well.
Two different ways actually!




----------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
Fun stuff.
Motion knows lots (well, more that lots) and comes from the engineer point of view.
Ox comes from the more get it done well and not so heavy into the math side.
One has to love and respect both.
Can we start with just plain ignore any peak torque motor ratings in any machine design?
 
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Yep. That "Peak TQ" will disappoint you.
Can I just laugh, or the holding torque of a stepper which is also so meaningless.
When I started doing motion control oh how I thought "plenty of power".
You build and you learn.
MTBF on my machine designs here and in the field now is at about 18-20 years. (not counting the worm gears on rotary under heavy 24/7 runs... way less)
That not so great but beginning ones were 2 years max.
I tell the young people building.
" Here is the deal.. this machine should still make parts when you are old and very retired. See that Blanchard that still runs.. see the tag on it from WW2?. "
 
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Well, my guess is that aboot anything with a pitch diameter 3" or more larger than your bore size* could be made to work. Like on the pages shown, there is 2 different 8" wheels. The next page has a finer pitch yet (40 tooth) and there it has a 7.6" pitch diameter.

Personally - I'd say that this project is likely over your head**, but we have given you enough info for you to run with - IF you are up to the task.

I still recommend that you put your motor on a manual table and forget building anything.


* Depending on the web design. NOT spoked for sure!
"web" = the space between the hub diameter and the outer wheel diameter.

** Not meaning to belittle you. I am sure that you are most likely a better welder than I am.
But this is not a project for most novice's. This is not bolt and weld together common parts type job.


Nothing wrong with grafting a motor where a hand-wheel once lived.
Got that T-shirt as well.
Two different ways actually!




----------------------

I am Ox and I approve this post!
We will look into it, I'm not head machinist in the shop, I build , repair ,retrofit and run CNC's in our shop for daily jobs and customer orders. We got 4 manual lathes and horizontal boring mill , one manual mill two CNC mills, CNC lathe and CNC plasma table to be able to cut 4x8 sheets, two lathes are 16ft and 18ft lenght, two huge hydraulic presses, big metal break to name a few. We are very capable of building pretty much anything that we think we won't waste our time on as a job and will certainly pay, and boy do we get various "inventors" come to us with various "patentable" crap all the time, as far as building our own jigs and machines and additions to them, trust me we are up to the task, the only question is if it's gonna work out of first , second or third try, but they all worked at the end so far. We're far from being "novice" in terms of building various stuff.
The manual rotary we took apart was last used about 10 years ago, to give you an idea how often we use rotaries for jobs we're working on. I also have small personal Taig mill with small rotary for shits and giggles , but that's not to compare with what we're trying to make here. We have 3 manual rotaries/indexers , I think i've put two of them in the photos already. The one I took apart last night was inherited from previous shop owner and was supposed to be driven by hydraulic "motor" however we realized that big bearing is seized. However that one is too big to be put on our CNC mill table, it is suitable for horizontal boring mill to rotate a Caterpillar frontloader/grader rim and precision is not of utmost importance.The other one is a bit smaller but still too big and doesn't have a through hole that we would like. Manual indexer was modified by previous owner and it's not suitable for motor adoption.
 
Can I just laugh, or the holding torque of a stepper which is also so meaningless.
When I started doing motion control oh how I thought "plenty of power".
You build and you learn.
MTBF on my machine designs here and in the field now is at about 18-20 years. Beginning ones were 2 years max.
Did you try Clearpaths? We are using them on most of our CNC machines and they are very up to the task, specially Nema34 sizes and some have gearboxes on them. Well actually We are using gearbox 3:1 on Nema23 size Clearpath for plasma table
 
Just built two machines with Nema 34 Clearpaths driving 25 to1 planetary reducers to Jack Screws. A third motor rotates a whole assembly on a 100-1 Nema worm gear reducer. Also just finished a 7 axis auto-load plastic pipe lathe using them. They are really quite nice little motors.
 








 
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