Custom made dies and taps

[clarnibass]

Hi

Does anyone know if there are places that can make dies or taps in specific non-standard sizes from HSS? Dies more than taps, and mainly very small sizes like 2mm to 3mm diameter approximately.

This is for musical instrument repair. Sometimes split dies are good enough, sometimes I make them myself from tool steel, which is ok for taps since they usually only need to cut softer materials like brass, cupro-nickel, etc. With dies they usually need to cut tool steel and I found that good quality HSS dies last much longer.

Thanks

 

[DanASM]

Hi

Does anyone know if there are places that can make dies or taps in specific non-standard sizes from HSS? Dies more than taps, and mainly very small sizes like 2mm to 3mm diameter approximately.

This is for musical instrument repair. Sometimes split dies are good enough, sometimes I make them myself from tool steel, which is ok for taps since they usually only need to cut softer materials like brass, cupro-nickel, etc. With dies they usually need to cut tool steel and I found that good quality HSS dies last much longer.

Thanks

Quality Chaser Company

I usually find chasers in my overstock. Got lots from over the years from buying out tool lots from closing shops.

These guys were the go to if needed something new. I want to say about $300 for a new set of chasers. I always get what I need for $40-$50 on ebay (common sizes).

 

[michiganbuck]

I have made special/odd taps with drill-rod but I could only OD clear them. Real taps are radially relived so the OD and the V of the thread has clearance, so much better than my homemade taps.
I had to make a much longer tap and then be very careful using them.

I have cut/ground flute gullets in higher class screws (8 or higher)and used them for thread repair taps.
Good to increase/ add a taper length to them)

 

[RC Mech]

There are local companies here in Ontario, Canada that make taps/dies and other tooling. I’m sure they’d do one offs. One such business is Taylor Tool, they’ve been around since 1918.

Die Manufacturing | Acme Taps Manufacturing | Wholesale Reamers, Jet Taps, Spiral Flute, Spiral Point

Surely there’s other companies like this closer to you.

 

[implmex]

Hi clarnibass:
Yes there are places you can get custom dies made, but be sitting down when you get quotes.
Custom taps are not too bad, but custom dies....WOW is all I can say.
Years ago I tried to source a custom button die and I believe Taylor Tool would do it back then but that was 30 years ago.
I choked at the price and single point threaded my parts on the lathe instead.

I just did a quick search, and yeah, they still offer it.
Here's a link:
DIES | Taylor Tool

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

 

[akajun]

Before you go the custom route check victor tool
They stock a lot of oddball taps and dies and don’t charge an arm and a leg
Yes most of it is imported but I’ve never had a problem.

 

[FredC]

What akajun said with a look at MSC also. They have sections of their catalog with special threads. I have purchased a 3 tap set from them in 5 X .5mm. That tap set has chatter mark on the teeth but actually cut a pretty good thread.
Another angle is I make some production #3-56 threads that have a metric equivalent (2.5 X .45mm). About 80% of the gauge tolerances overlap. Maybe there are other thread standards with overlap.

Mauser still uses 1/4 -22 for their trigger guards. For years I tried to make it complicated by making screws 6.35 X 1.15mm. The moral of that story is you think it is a custom metric thread and it is a holdover from when it was done with threads commonly used in the US or other pre metric standards.

 

[L Vanice]

Before you go the custom route check victor tool
They stock a lot of oddball taps and dies and don’t charge an arm and a leg
Yes most of it is imported but I’ve never had a problem.

I have learned to look first at Victor because they often have what I want at decent prices. They have a good stock of small metric dies, so many that the list must include special sizes.
Metric High Speed Steel Round Adjustable Dies

That said, they also advertise custom made taps, though they do not mention making custom dies.
"For sizes not listed or out-of-stock:
We can custom-make most special taps in 24-48 hours.
Price is dependent on quantity (6 taps, for example, may each cost 1/3 the price of a single custom tap).
Please email us with complete specifications and we will quote."

For USA-made special taps and dies, Widell is a major source.
Special Taps and Dies Manufacturer - Widell Industries Your Thread Cutting Tool Headquarters.

For my own infrequent need for very small special screws, I use a watchmaker lathe with a screwcutting attachment. It will do inch or metric threads down to 1.5 mm x .2 mm pitch or 1/16" x 200 TPI. Maybe smaller, but I have never needed to try. Making screws that way is time-consuming, running up a big bill if doing it for a paying customer.



Larry

 

[stephen thomas]

A 5/16" Geometric can be adjusted to give a fairly large diameter range (fit) and chasers are relatively inexpensive. Are you certain it would not do what you need? As has been mentioned above by others, I've gotten quite a few oddball metric (& inch) chasers cheaply in auction box lots.

smt

 

[L Vanice]

A 5/16" Geometric can be adjusted to give a fairly large diameter range (fit) and chasers are relatively inexpensive. Are you certain it would not do what you need? As has been mentioned above by others, I've gotten quite a few oddball metric (& inch) chasers cheaply in auction box lots.

smt

The most popular USA 8 mm watch lathe collet (WW) has a .275" - 40 TPI thread. It is popular enough that Widell or other USA makers and some Chinese eBay sellers have taps and dies for them. But I have also found that stock 1/4-40 chasers in a Geometric 5/16" D-type die head will adjust oversize enough to cut the .275-40 threads. Saves a bunch of money over ordering custom chasers.

Larry

 

[clarnibass]

Thanks, I'll look at those places and yes I realized prices are probably very high since I had some similar tools custom made before (but not dies specifically).
I'm asking this for a friend who constantly see instruments from a company and time where they apparently used slightly oversized threads. He said he has broken quite a few dies already when using standard split ones.

As mentioned, since with taps it's mostly softer material, making them from tool steel usually works fine (often even without hardening). It's dies that are the real problem. I've ordered from Victor before, I probably have all the sizes I need that are possible to buy there. I've also bought some unusual sizes from various places (MSC, Chasen, ebay). I sometimes use roughly equivalent metric or inch sizes, standard technique for instruments that works perfectly for these relatively short threads.

I've never used thread chasers, how would they work better?

Here's an example. 3-48 TPI. This is equivalent to M2.51mmx0.53mm. Metric 0.50mm pitch is close enough IME in most cases, but there is only the M2.5 size which doesn't help. The next metric size is M3, way too large. The next inch size, 4-48 (M2.84), is also too large. Supposedly the approx 0.33m diameter difference is too much for standard 3-48 and 4-48 split dies to be reliable in this case, it's in between.

An example of a good equivalent is M2.6x0.45mm for oversized 3-56 (0.09mm difference in diameter).

 

[stephen thomas]

That's an excellent example!

GEOMETRIC 3-48 PROJECTED CHASERS FOR 5/16" D, DS,DSA, 15 HOOK, GROUND | eBay

note that several sets are available from other vendors, too.

You want ground (as opposed to milled) prefereably, but for your work either will do and can be hand honed if necessary. Projection style is good - allows threading almost flush to a shoulder. ("Projection" = dies are longer and project past the nose of the die head.) But any style will work.

The die head makes OS or US easy. As Larry illustrated my point.

I have not paid attention since covid and inflation kicked in, but a 5/16" GSA used to cost about $100 to $150 on eBay. One of mine came from a PM member posting in the FS, for about the lower figure with a cabinet full of dies. My first was found at the junk yard in a skip of tooling and defective collets from the Hardinge factory, tipped over in the mud.

smt

PS, these are a better deal - NOS, never been reground.
3-NEW SETS PROJECTION GEOMETRIC CHASERS FOR A 5/16 D DIE HEAD 3-48, 3-56, & 4-36 | eBay

 

[stephen thomas]

Actually, they are less widely available, but in your situation you might want to regularly search acorn dies.
I have uesd them to repair a clarinet for one of my son's class mates. You can make a die holder yourself if you have a lathe. either hand or machine use.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=3-48+acorn&_sacat=0

One problem with acorns, though, is you can't practically open them over the very slight OS they come with, or close them more than a few .001's or they will shatter. DAMHIKT. They are very good for on-size, +/- a "tinch".

At the bottom of the eBay ad:

This sale is for a new old stock, never been used Greenfield No.1, 3-48 TPI NC acorn die. We have 1000's of NOS acorn dies in a variety of sizes we will be listing soon

smt

 

[gbent]

clarnibass, if your friend needs to open a standard die slightly, try heating the area opposite the adjustment slot with an acetylene torch. Use a 3 or 4x carburizing flame set hot and get in and get out very quick, then quench it. I would start with about 1400F. You could do the same heating with a TIG torch.

 

[MrStretch]

A good set of BA taps and dies might be a big help.
Are you trying to replicate existing threads or make new screws that fit 'well enough' in a retapped hole?
I am an antiquarian horologist and clock restorer. I have found over the years that BA threads often work the best to refresh bunged up threads. It's not uncommon to find old clocks that a random assortment of screws instead of just a few different sizes like they were originally. Clockmakers would use a screw plate and make a corresponding tap. There was no need for any kind of standard thread as long as the screw works OK in the threaded hole.

 

[clarnibass]

Thanks very much.

Do you have a link to the "head"(?) or holder (I assume chuck-like thing?) that these geometric chasers are used with? Is it something that is available and easy to find?

Re the option to what I imagine is basically softening the main stress point when enlarging dies, that is also an option. If this would allow a die to reliably work without constantly breaking it could be the cheapest solution.

I'll look at BA dies too. I've head about them but haven't used any of those sizes before (I think my own clarinet uses BA sizes but it's actually extremely rare).
There are a lot of options but main one is making new screws to replace originals that are ruined beyond repair. i.e. the threads are still the original size, but some specific models of instruments uses weird non-standard sizes. I don't see this specific model often enough so at worst case a die breaks or I use the lathe even for those small sizes. A friend said he sees them all the time so wondering about a more efficient method.

 

[dian]

victor is an incredible place. 13 mm taps and dies in 7 varieties each. unfortunately they dont carry the mating screws. i like their hss endmills too. 1" for $20? thats underbidding aliexpress.

do those split dies cut? these are non existent in europe, i might get some from them at those prices.

 

[L Vanice]

Thanks very much.

Do you have a link to the "head"(?) or holder (I assume chuck-like thing?) that these geometric chasers are used with? Is it something that is available and easy to find?...

Search for 5/16 D geometric die head. There were variations like DS, DSA and DA, but they all take the same chasers and operate the same for your purpose. They will usually have 5/8" straight shanks to fit small Hardinge turrets and B&S screw machines. There were also some very good copies made in Germany that take the 5/16" D Geometric chasers. They were marked Rubometric, Grand and Efem. Chasers that fit these heads, both standard and special sizes, are very common and have been made by other companies, including one in Israel. Be aware that all these die heads were made in various capacities larger than 5/16", so mind what you buy. And there is a Geometric EJ5 die head (5 mm capacity) that is a nice small size, but does not open for retracting, is expensive and the chasers are scarce.

Geometric head GEOMETRIC DIE HEAD 5/16 DS 5/8" SHANK W/ SIDE RELEASE | eBay
Rubometric head RUBOMETRIC DIE HEAD DS 5/16 | eBay
Good pictures of new 5/16 D chasers (projection style that can be reground many times) 5/16-36 NS Thread Chasers for Geometric 5/16" D Die Head Set of 4 | eBay
Picture of new 5/16 D chasers (standard non-projection style) GEOMETRIC #2-64 MILLED CHASERS FOR 5/16"D, DS, DSA DIEHEAD | eBay
Picture of 5/16 D chasers that have been reground until they are worthless (watch that step!) GEOMETRIC 5/16"-32 GROUND CHASERS FOR 5/16" D, DS, DSA DIE HEAD | eBay

Avoid other brands or styles of die heads and chasers, even if they are 5/16" capacity. They worked OK when new, but were not popular, so chasers are hard to find now. Avoid Landis, Eastern, J&L and Geometric K style, to name a few. Some sellers on eBay have no idea what they have and call anything that looks like a chaser or die head "geometric." Study online pictures of the real thing so you can recognize whether the seller's description is correct. D style chasers do not have holes in them, or sloping sides.

Larry

 

[swamp dweller]

I've used Widell for special taps. usually double and triple leads, # 8 and #10 mostly.

 

[Terry Keeley]

There are local companies here in Ontario, Canada that make taps/dies and other tooling. I’m sure they’d do one offs. One such business is Taylor Tool, they’ve been around since 1918.

Die Manufacturing | Acme Taps Manufacturing | Wholesale Reamers, Jet Taps, Spiral Flute, Spiral Point

Surely there’s other companies like this closer to you.

Just got a custom L3 tap from them, vey well made. They custom grind rake angles according to the material you'll be using so be sure to specify.