DanP_85
Aluminum
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Location
- Taupo, New Zealand
I tend to avoid having sex with my customers.
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Customer expectations on tolerance?
- Thread starter FredC
- Start date
- Replies 33
- Views 5,030
Illinoyance
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2015
intercoursing a customer?
Illinoyance
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2015
I bet those bearing seat tolerances came from an SKF or simiar catalog.
implmex
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Location
- Vancouver BC Canada
Hi Fred C:
I understand exactly where you're coming from, and my GO TO solution has become to find a way to get a time and materials contract for stuff like this if I decide it's worthwhile even to take it on, rather than doing their engineering for them for free and then begging for crumbs (how I used to do it when I was young and eager).
It takes finessing the customer a bit, but if the challenge is framed the right way, you can be seen as a solution to their intractable problem and the time and materials contract is the price they pay for your willingness to put your time, expertise, resources, and ingenuity to solving THEIR problem.
We can never forget it's THEIR problem, not YOUR problem and they often need to be continuously re-educated to see that this is so.
When you decide whether to even get involved, obviously you have to make a calculation whether the costs you incur are worth it to your company, and walking away is sometimes the best option, but you get to decide that...not your customer.
So yeah, if the customer wants your input and expertise, you can offer it, but only if it suits you.
I tell my customers, yeah, I can try to make what you're asking for...here's what you have to accept if you want me to try.
That way everybody remembers just whose problem this actually is, and you get to bill for every hour you actually put into the project and every cutter you buy and every piece of material you fuck up trying to get there.
Submitting a time log together with the invoice often soothes a lot of ruffled feathers because they get to learn what it actually took.
Also, if they can't agree to those conditions they obviously don't want it all that badly.
So if that's true, they can re-engineer it, they can seek other vendors, or they can abandon the project...their call!
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
I understand exactly where you're coming from, and my GO TO solution has become to find a way to get a time and materials contract for stuff like this if I decide it's worthwhile even to take it on, rather than doing their engineering for them for free and then begging for crumbs (how I used to do it when I was young and eager).
It takes finessing the customer a bit, but if the challenge is framed the right way, you can be seen as a solution to their intractable problem and the time and materials contract is the price they pay for your willingness to put your time, expertise, resources, and ingenuity to solving THEIR problem.
We can never forget it's THEIR problem, not YOUR problem and they often need to be continuously re-educated to see that this is so.
When you decide whether to even get involved, obviously you have to make a calculation whether the costs you incur are worth it to your company, and walking away is sometimes the best option, but you get to decide that...not your customer.
So yeah, if the customer wants your input and expertise, you can offer it, but only if it suits you.
I tell my customers, yeah, I can try to make what you're asking for...here's what you have to accept if you want me to try.
That way everybody remembers just whose problem this actually is, and you get to bill for every hour you actually put into the project and every cutter you buy and every piece of material you fuck up trying to get there.
Submitting a time log together with the invoice often soothes a lot of ruffled feathers because they get to learn what it actually took.
Also, if they can't agree to those conditions they obviously don't want it all that badly.
So if that's true, they can re-engineer it, they can seek other vendors, or they can abandon the project...their call!
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
richard newman
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Location
- rochester, ny
Marcus, I like that solution, but how does that conversation actually go?
1yesca
Stainless
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2004
yup or speed cost money how fast do you want to go ?
1yesca
Stainless
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2004
when they ask you if you can make the part just tell them [ IF WE DON'T RUN OUT OF MONEY I THINK WE CAN MAKE IT ]
implmex
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Location
- Vancouver BC Canada
Hi Richard:
The glib answer is "How can I help you?".
Yeah there's a lot more to it, but I try to frame the relationship in those terms right from the first interview.
I ask them what they're trying to make, and I ask them where they think they are along that path.
I ask them how they intend to make it happen, including how they intend to pay for it all.
I ask lots of questions and I persist in the conversation until I understand what they want from me.
Half the people that first come to me, go away again and I never see them again.
Recognize that my customer base does not come to me for the usual machine shop contracts.
I have neither the equipment nor the infrastructure to compete credibly in that domain...others can do that far better than I and I let them know that.
So to a large extent I've already winnowed out the poor fits at the first interview by pointing them to others more capable than I if that's what they want or need.
I get Alpha projects because of it...small startups often, that are looking for a workshop to make a first prototype.
A "real" machine shop cannot afford to invest too much in these kinds of relationships...it's hard to make money this way if you are not versatile and many shops are not...not because they're stupid, but because their demands for business viability are so different from mine.
If you've got a warehouse full of Brothers running production, you won't make money this way.
Remember also, I have almost zero overhead and can afford to reject a relationship that isn't going to work.
As soon as you have payroll and machine payments and a mortgage, that luxury is much harder to insist upon.
So I offer them an initial contract in which they must trust me enough to pony up a small to moderate amount of cash up front.
I will use it up and we will have a review.
If they don't like how it's progressing they can terminate with no hard feelings and no lawsuits to recover my costs...I was paid beforehand.
Almost all continue to come to me...I can think offhand, of one in 40 years who walked away dis-satisfied after the first contract.
The relationship relaxes after that and I typically bill monthly.
If they won't risk that they're not serious and I'm better off without them.
For their money they get everything I can provide and that means design input, strategy input, the machine shop with all its resources, and my experience.
I sell what I know with a picture album, a few project samples, and an interview.
Many come to me through referrals from others who stopped being customers of mine as soon as they went to Beta development and outgrew me and what I can do for them.
I let them go ungrudgingly and continue to help wherever I can.
I still get calls from some of them for years.
So that's it...no big secret.
I've found a niche in my catchment area and I capitalize on it.
Apparently finding vendors who will do this is incredibly difficult, so I'm never short of work, but you must also remember that it doesn't take much to keep me in milk and cookies, and I do as well as I need to.
Whether Fred C can afford to run these kinds of customers this way is something I have no idea about, but it sounded like he has this kind of customer in this instance, and this is how I have found a way to be profitable off of this kind of customer.
So I share the experience and the mindset, in the hope that some of it will be useful.
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
The glib answer is "How can I help you?".
Yeah there's a lot more to it, but I try to frame the relationship in those terms right from the first interview.
I ask them what they're trying to make, and I ask them where they think they are along that path.
I ask them how they intend to make it happen, including how they intend to pay for it all.
I ask lots of questions and I persist in the conversation until I understand what they want from me.
Half the people that first come to me, go away again and I never see them again.
Recognize that my customer base does not come to me for the usual machine shop contracts.
I have neither the equipment nor the infrastructure to compete credibly in that domain...others can do that far better than I and I let them know that.
So to a large extent I've already winnowed out the poor fits at the first interview by pointing them to others more capable than I if that's what they want or need.
I get Alpha projects because of it...small startups often, that are looking for a workshop to make a first prototype.
A "real" machine shop cannot afford to invest too much in these kinds of relationships...it's hard to make money this way if you are not versatile and many shops are not...not because they're stupid, but because their demands for business viability are so different from mine.
If you've got a warehouse full of Brothers running production, you won't make money this way.
Remember also, I have almost zero overhead and can afford to reject a relationship that isn't going to work.
As soon as you have payroll and machine payments and a mortgage, that luxury is much harder to insist upon.
So I offer them an initial contract in which they must trust me enough to pony up a small to moderate amount of cash up front.
I will use it up and we will have a review.
If they don't like how it's progressing they can terminate with no hard feelings and no lawsuits to recover my costs...I was paid beforehand.
Almost all continue to come to me...I can think offhand, of one in 40 years who walked away dis-satisfied after the first contract.
The relationship relaxes after that and I typically bill monthly.
If they won't risk that they're not serious and I'm better off without them.
For their money they get everything I can provide and that means design input, strategy input, the machine shop with all its resources, and my experience.
I sell what I know with a picture album, a few project samples, and an interview.
Many come to me through referrals from others who stopped being customers of mine as soon as they went to Beta development and outgrew me and what I can do for them.
I let them go ungrudgingly and continue to help wherever I can.
I still get calls from some of them for years.
So that's it...no big secret.
I've found a niche in my catchment area and I capitalize on it.
Apparently finding vendors who will do this is incredibly difficult, so I'm never short of work, but you must also remember that it doesn't take much to keep me in milk and cookies, and I do as well as I need to.
Whether Fred C can afford to run these kinds of customers this way is something I have no idea about, but it sounded like he has this kind of customer in this instance, and this is how I have found a way to be profitable off of this kind of customer.
So I share the experience and the mindset, in the hope that some of it will be useful.
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
triumph406
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Location
- ca
As always the assumption is that the tolerances are ridiculous, the engineer doesn't know what he's doing, they need education because machinists always know better etc etc
If you can't make the part tell them.
If you can make the part charge them an appropriate value that reflects the time it takes to make a part. If that includes having to make a gage to check the part, include that.
I don't get my underwear in a twist on tight tolerances. I can either make the part or I can't. On the other hand a .03 radius on a corner .50 deep gets my blood pressure up. In those cases I quote $xx with the assumption the .03 radius can be changed to .xx and let them decide.
If you can't make the part tell them.
If you can make the part charge them an appropriate value that reflects the time it takes to make a part. If that includes having to make a gage to check the part, include that.
I don't get my underwear in a twist on tight tolerances. I can either make the part or I can't. On the other hand a .03 radius on a corner .50 deep gets my blood pressure up. In those cases I quote $xx with the assumption the .03 radius can be changed to .xx and let them decide.
richard newman
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Location
- rochester, ny
Marcus, thanks for your frank, detailed, and generous reply. Makes a lot of sense, and clearly depends greatly on communication skills, which from your posts, you appear to be excellent at. Not for everyone!
I have a friend who had a similar strategy, altho kinda the opposite end of that spectrum - he specialized in stuff that was too big or too difficult for anyone else. A brilliant guy, he introduced me to precision metalworking, in return I shared my woodworking expertise. Rochester was overflowing with machine shops and tool & die makers, but he was always busy.
Limy Sami
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2007
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
That's pretty much my approach, usually a simple and polite (that's important!!) Q - do you really need those tol's? if the answer's a firm yes, then I no quote, end of. If it's a question (again polite!! - like what do you mean or I'm not sure - then we'll talk.
BOTOH (not that again
) Over 50 years experience of this game (and others mechanical) my default is ;- IF IN DOUBT, WALK AWAYBill D
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2004
- Location
- Modesto, CA USA
Marcus, a qustion for you. I always assumed you worked for a company and they got the design approved by some medical board. Do you have your own shop and drum up customers? I have absolutely no idea how one would design say a replacement hip and get it approved so an insurance company would pay to get it installed in a patient.
I hope in the medical field there is not a home shop harry designing and making bits and pieces for human use.
I know for animal research almost all the primate medical stuff says "not for human use". Even simple stuff like breathing masks for big monkeys will have that label. Drugs also get labeled that way. Even when they are bubble gum flavor for kids. The funniset one I have seen was some balls and toys for monkeys and apes to play with. They had the same warning of not for human use. Things a first grader would like to use at recess.
Bill D
Bill D
I hope in the medical field there is not a home shop harry designing and making bits and pieces for human use.
I know for animal research almost all the primate medical stuff says "not for human use". Even simple stuff like breathing masks for big monkeys will have that label. Drugs also get labeled that way. Even when they are bubble gum flavor for kids. The funniset one I have seen was some balls and toys for monkeys and apes to play with. They had the same warning of not for human use. Things a first grader would like to use at recess.
Bill D
Bill D
implmex
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Location
- Vancouver BC Canada
Hi Bill D:
I run a one man glorified hobby shop that used to be a more respectable "business" but always catered to startups and their needs.
As many know I was a dentist once upon a time and got into this gig by developing surgical armamentaria (dentalspeak for "tools") for the emerging dental implant industry.
Back then there was nobody doing it, and since I'd been a mold maker, I had the toys and knew how to make precision things.
I've always been a prototype guy...the production I did and still do is done kicking and screaming and because I'm a slut for money.
So I got into this gig because I could meet a need and talk the language too.
Surgeons and dentists are inveterate tinkerers, so I developed a reputation in my community as a place to go for them to stroke their dreams, and it's fed my family for decades.
Along the way I became noddingly acquainted with all of what it takes to bring a medical device from Alpha development through Beta and into production.
I've never been interested in taking up the hassle of that part of it...luckily for me, there's a steady stream of doctor and dentist inventors, and also startups of various kinds looking for a workshop that could make what they dream.
I got to be "The Crazy Dentist with the Machine Shop" so I always had plenty of customers wanting my services, partly because it sounded so wacky.
With regard to the question about designing something like a replacement hip...these are not what a guy like me would typically try to take on...as you correctly surmise, these things are done by teams of designers with experience in the field.
As an example, I did the Alpha development of a hip surgery device for one of the contributors on here who works for BC Cancer...I greatly enjoyed my time with them, but when it moved out of Alpha development, it stopped being a reasonable proposition for guys like me to noodle around on, so it went into other hands, better suited to take on ALL of what's needed to get a product like this to market.
So that's where I'm coming from...no need to fear that the product of a hacker like me is going to end up in some little old lady.
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
I run a one man glorified hobby shop that used to be a more respectable "business" but always catered to startups and their needs.
As many know I was a dentist once upon a time and got into this gig by developing surgical armamentaria (dentalspeak for "tools") for the emerging dental implant industry.
Back then there was nobody doing it, and since I'd been a mold maker, I had the toys and knew how to make precision things.
I've always been a prototype guy...the production I did and still do is done kicking and screaming and because I'm a slut for money.
So I got into this gig because I could meet a need and talk the language too.
Surgeons and dentists are inveterate tinkerers, so I developed a reputation in my community as a place to go for them to stroke their dreams, and it's fed my family for decades.
Along the way I became noddingly acquainted with all of what it takes to bring a medical device from Alpha development through Beta and into production.
I've never been interested in taking up the hassle of that part of it...luckily for me, there's a steady stream of doctor and dentist inventors, and also startups of various kinds looking for a workshop that could make what they dream.
I got to be "The Crazy Dentist with the Machine Shop" so I always had plenty of customers wanting my services, partly because it sounded so wacky.
With regard to the question about designing something like a replacement hip...these are not what a guy like me would typically try to take on...as you correctly surmise, these things are done by teams of designers with experience in the field.
As an example, I did the Alpha development of a hip surgery device for one of the contributors on here who works for BC Cancer...I greatly enjoyed my time with them, but when it moved out of Alpha development, it stopped being a reasonable proposition for guys like me to noodle around on, so it went into other hands, better suited to take on ALL of what's needed to get a product like this to market.
So that's where I'm coming from...no need to fear that the product of a hacker like me is going to end up in some little old lady.
Cheers
Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
FredC
Diamond
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2010
- Location
- Dewees Texas
Marcus,
Like you I have a story. Took some electronics classes way back when. In this shop we have been making improved and cheaper expendable parts for the electronics industry. Helped that I am familiar with the terminology.
I did a lot of work with the local Motorola now Continental plant. I rebuilt tools for equipment by this supplier in question and used to buy parts from them to facilitate the rebuilds. I do not think they liked the idea that I was rebuilding this stuff and the Motorola plant was not buying as many pricey spare parts. I guess they did not want to piss off Motorola by not selling me components. After a while I improved on and made those parts for less.
I approached the supplier with the improved parts just as they re-organized and lost their internal machine shop. I have been doing production parts and occasional onesys and twoseys for years now.
Wish they would have put notes on this set of drawings, usually I know when I am modifying one of their supplied parts. No clue on this batch even though the drawings are almost 20 years old. Finally got enough info on this batch I could quote them. The engineer/draftsman that made the drawings is probably not there anymore, so the old drawings did not get the info added that would allow an outsider to quote the work.
Like you I have a story. Took some electronics classes way back when. In this shop we have been making improved and cheaper expendable parts for the electronics industry. Helped that I am familiar with the terminology.
I did a lot of work with the local Motorola now Continental plant. I rebuilt tools for equipment by this supplier in question and used to buy parts from them to facilitate the rebuilds. I do not think they liked the idea that I was rebuilding this stuff and the Motorola plant was not buying as many pricey spare parts. I guess they did not want to piss off Motorola by not selling me components. After a while I improved on and made those parts for less.
I approached the supplier with the improved parts just as they re-organized and lost their internal machine shop. I have been doing production parts and occasional onesys and twoseys for years now.
Wish they would have put notes on this set of drawings, usually I know when I am modifying one of their supplied parts. No clue on this batch even though the drawings are almost 20 years old. Finally got enough info on this batch I could quote them. The engineer/draftsman that made the drawings is probably not there anymore, so the old drawings did not get the info added that would allow an outsider to quote the work.
