Dating a Barber Colman #3 Hob

[physicsguy91]

Hello all. I recently picked up an older Barber Colman #3 gear hob with the better part of a set of change gears. I'm trying to find a serial number or some other means to date the machine but am having a hard time finding anything. I believe the machine has been repainted, so it's possible the serial is buried under a coat of paint. I was hoping someone might be able to advise on where the serial numbers are typically located or whether there is any other method of dating.

I've got a user manual coming in the mail tomorrow and am looking forward to tearing into the machine. It'll be a while before I've got it all cleaned up and everything but that's half the fun.

Thanks

 

[johnoder]

Here are some numbers (in case you get lucky looking) and years for No. 3

1935....1190
1940....1572
1941....1926
1942....2478
1943....2911
1946....3310
1947....3442
1950....3599

 

[RCPDesigns]

Dating older machines can be difficult but is usually worth the effort. Try to go at their pace and realize it might be slower than yours. Speak loud and distinctly, don't get frustrated if you have to repeat yourself. Zoom dating works well these days as some communication issues are solved by a good microphone and lighting. As for other forms of dating, I can only recommend against speed dating for the older machines. Be creative and good luck!

 

[Rob F.]

You must have really been hit hard by the covid lockdown. Try to get out more, even if you have to wear a mask you can hang out in the vegetable isle at the grocery store, be sure to ask all the women if the zuccini or cucumber you are holding is ripe and if so how do you tell?
I wish you luck on your fishing expedition

 

[EmGo]

Dating older machines can be difficult but is usually worth the effort.

You gotta be kidding ! Droopy old bags like a 3 ? Gimme a nice middle-aged 6-16 any day, with a tight firm hob slide

 

[physicsguy91]

Haha guess I walked right into that one huh.

Johnoder, can I ask where you found those numbers and dates?

Thanks

 

[DeSelle]

I have my eye on a couple of these. Post some pics.

 

[johnoder]

Serial Number Reference Book for Metalworking Machinery (from 1975)

Johnoder, can I ask where you found those numbers and dates?

Thanks

 

[physicsguy91]

Here's a photo. It needs a good cleaning but otherwise seems in pretty good condition.

Came with a 1.5HP 3ph motor which I assume is original. I'll probably be putting a single phase motor on it.

 

[EmGo]

Here's a photo.

That looks like the right-angle hob slide for cutting worms. If so, it's worth more than the rest of the machine put together. You might want to trade it for the normal one (and maybe some cash coming your way ?), usually you want the outboard support on your hob arbor.

 

[physicsguy91]

Very interesting! I don't really know enough about these machines yet to say one way or the other. The manual I ordered is stuck somewhere in the post office unfortunately.

Just for curiosity, what would you guess is a fair value on such a machine? I have ~50 gears with it, some homemade, most original.

Thanks!

 

[carlquib]

The gear set is worth quite a bit. Easier to ship than a complete machine. I still don't have a compete set for my #3 I have just been making them or buying as I need them. I bought my machine quite a few years ago and didn't pay a lot for it. It is in good shape but like I mentioned earlier only had the gears it was set up with when I got it, so I only got about 8 gears total. I think I paid about $300 or maybe a little less. It came with a lot of equipment I was buying from a dealer and he knew my weakness for old iron and talked me into it. [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk

 

[Dan from Oakland]

My guess is its pre 1940 based on the shape of the base casting and the coring out of material on the work slide. No picture of the back side, but this machine probably did not have the motor in the base originally. Yes, that is a right angle hob swivel and with the down feed attachment above the work slide, it was configured for cutting worms and worm wheels as well as spur and helical gears. Unless its in a pile somewhere its missing the support casting for the end of the round over arm that the tail stock is mounted on.

 

[physicsguy91]

Thanks for the input everyone!

Still no luck finding a number yet, I'm thinking I'll likely find it once I get all the extra paint stripped off. I have done some more research though and I'm inclined to believe that it's on the older side. There are a couple documents posted to VintageMachinery with photos that very closely resemble mine supposedly published in 1920. None of these photos show the support for the overarm support, and I can find no mounting provisions for it on my machine, so perhaps this is a more modern feature? It does also appear that I am missing a pedal the goes underneath the main casting, a shutoff or dead man switch I suppose. I can see bolt holes and pins for attaching one. And yes, the motor was outside the base casting.

Regarding the right angle hob swivel, is the difference just that it doesn't have the outboard hob support? And is this perhaps just to prevent interference? Am I likely to run into any issues using a right angle swivel for spur gearing other than some additional stress on the bearings due to the lack of outboard support? Attached is another photo of the hob swivel.

Thanks again!

 

[johnoder]

Similar looking.

This is a page in South Bend Catalog 50-A from March 1940

 

[MarkoR]

I am having trouble wiring power my Barber Coleman No.3 gear hobber and I don’t want to fry any of the internal wiring, Can anyone help with a fuse box wiring diagram or photo so I can wire the cable from my 3 phase outlet to the machine?

 

[EmGo]

I am having trouble wiring power my Barber Coleman No.3 gear hobber and I don’t want to fry any of the internal wiring,

That's a (repainted) later model 6-10, worth a bunch more than a #3, has the giant "extra accuracy" worm which means you can't cut small numbers of teeth very well and there is no "internal wiring" to speak of, just a go and stop pushbutton. One leg of each of the three legs of your electricity goes to that contactor. Nice little hobber, congrats.

 

[MarkoR]

That's a (repainted) later model 6-10, worth a bunch more than a #3, has the giant "extra accuracy" worm which means you can't cut small numbers of teeth very well and there is no "internal wiring" to speak of, just a go and stop pushbutton. One leg of each of the three legs of your electricity goes to that contactor. Nice little hobber, congrats.

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you for the reply!!! I believe you are right the right side doors said #3 on the gear change plate but that’s probably wrong since it’s an old used machine and they probably just threw on any door they had on hand and painted it.

Im just concerned connecting the 3phade cable to the connector as I don’t know which one of the 4 connectors is the ground and don’t want to fry the wiring.

Is there anywhere to find the wiring diagram or a photo of one wired up so I can copy that?

 

[EmGo]

Im just concerned connecting the 3phade cable to the connector as I don’t know which one of the 4 connectors is the ground and don’t want to fry the wiring.

My three-phase had three leads, what's that ground thing for ? the three leads on the contactor that go to the motor do the electrical part, then if you have a fourth, connect it to the chassis. It's old, we don' need no steenkin safety crap !

Seriously, the total of electric connections on that is turn on motor, turn off motor. And the coolant pump. That's it. If you don't have enough experience, any electrical guy can hook it up.

Is there anywhere to find the wiring diagram or a photo of one wired up so I can copy that?

You should get a manual. Try all the usual places; fleabay, vintage-lathes.com (I think, close to that anyhow), then the dealers like piselli enterprises or gibbs will have one, or maybe someone here will pop up and be willing to xerox you a copy. You shouold have one, there's more to know than just how to connect the motor.