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Deckel FP1 -helicoïdal milling accessory, beginners question

Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
Hello everybody,

Being retired, as a new amateur and unexperienced machinist I was lucky enough to find a Deckel FP1 at a very low price, I started to learn the basics of milling on my own. I found some excellent teachers on the Internet (i.e. "That lazy Machinist.com").

However, some problems remain hard to solve for me as I am not a professional, and I kindly request help from more experienced Deckel users.

The problem I'am facing now is that I have a helicoïdal milling accessory, and I would like to learn how to make straight and helicoïdal gears. While the FP1 machine itself is provided with Morse N°4 taper, the helicoïdal milling accessory is provided with a tapered hole called (in French) "Cône normalisé 40" (= something like "Normalised taper 40" in English. I have also a male taper part provided with a point that fits correctly in the divider head and also a sliding headstock with a point. So I could attach a workpiece between the two points. However, I would rather like to buy a chuck for maintaining workpieces into the divider headstock.

My question is: what should I buy exactly? I would think that I need a male taper piece "Normalised 40", to connect to a backplate, and a chuck to be screwed in the backplate. Looking around on the Internet, I could not find these 3 parts to fit together.

Could somebody help my find a solution for this problem? Can somebody give me a reference of a supplier? Or am I wrong in my method?

Many thanks in advance,

Michel
 

TNB

Stainless
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Location
France
Michel

If your helical milling attachment has a 40 taper, the spindle nose probably has 4 radial tapered holes.
Those holes are meant to mount a chuck backplate such as this one directly. No taper.

Please note that the backplate in the ad is for a plain dividing head.
I don't know if the OD of the helical milling attachment is the same (although I can't figure out why it would be different, but what do we know ???).

You can also find three jaws chucks mounted on SK40 attachments, but typically they are smaller than the ones with a flange, and the setup should also be less rigid.
 

Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
Hello TNB,

Many many thanks for your comprehensive answer. This is exactly the information that I was missing.
Today I have not the opportunity to examine that but sure tomorrow I will examine that in depth.

Encore mille fois merci pour votre aide,

Michel
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Indeed the spindle OD (mounting surface for the chuck adapter that "T" referenced above is not the same on the helical milling attachment...
The spindle on the helical milling attachment is smaller than the standard plain dividing head...No idea why this is so, but it it....
I would contact Frantz Singer in Germany to see if he has the correct adapters...and perhaps a mating chuck, although in reality his prices will be higher for a chuck than you might find
on the internet especially if you shop fro Asian built parts....Don't believe you will find the adapter from another source unless by chance you can score a complete chuck with adapter off
somewhere like e-bay..... Good Luck.

Also be advised that with a draw bar you can easily mount the "Deckel" style direct mounting 40 Collets in that spindle, which will give holding to 25mm i believe (1")

Cheers Ross
 

Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
Thanks for your explanations, AlfaGTA. Slowly on, I start to learn about these matters. And there is realy much to learn. Such a forum as PracticalMachinist is unvaluable for me.
I think indeed that I will have a look to Asian built parts, prices in Germany exceeds somewhat the possibilities of an amateur machinist...

Michel
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Here you go...Made this one for my helical milling attachment.
Not fully dimensioned here because you need to make the step fit the chuck you get, and the bolt pattern (3 holes) also to suit....

Made mine from mill heat treated 4142...Check all dimensions to be sure before cutting any metal....

attachment.php


Cheers Ross
 

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Hey there,

well done on your FP1, enjoy.

As Ross already said, you can use SK40 (standard taper 40) Deckel direct collets in the spiral milling attachement, like these: - RC MACHINES Luxembourg | Deckel S20x2 | Collets | MACHINE ACCESSORIES | RC Machines Luxembourg EN

Alternatively, you could use a SK40 ER40 collet chuck like this one collet chuck SK40 - ER40, new - GBZ451 | Accessories Milling | USED ARTICLES | RC Machines Luxembourg EN (this is for M16 drawbar but Singer also has for deckel drawtube as well, here it is Spannzangenfutter SK40 S20x2 ER40 im Alukoffer Rl. max. 8 mm Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay)

Or, you can use a SK40 to MT4 adapter like this one reduction sleeve ISO40-MT4 short open end type - RCORH404 | Open | Reduction | MACHINE ACCESSORIES | RC Machines Luxembourg EN and, then, use your MT4 tooling. Wither with a Deckel drawtube if you have Deckel MT4 tools, or a M16 drawbar for standard MT4 tools).

Most of the times a collet will do, but it's nice to have options: get a cheap chuck and fix up a backplate based on Ross's sketch.

BR,
Thanos
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
I would prefere holding the workpiece between centres if anyway possible That way you do not have that bulky chuck which is often in the way
I would turn the workpiece between centers too then

BTW We like to see pictures of the machines here

Peter

BTW Ross
Are you sure that size of 2.7497 in your drawing is correct ?
That would translate in a very wierd size of 69.84mm
I do not have one right now to check

Peter
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Peter:
Not positive about the size. I am at work just now and my helical milling rig is at home, so anything is possible and as i stated above, verify all dimensions before cutting anything.
That drawing is based on a SolidWorks model i made years ago. Dimensions come out of the model (parametric data ?).
I would have made the adapter with a bit of clearance to allow some adjustment for truth of the held part ...But the size does seem curious...

Additionally the holes for the retaining screws are shown the size of the screw OD.....Should be drilled and tapped for 10mm set screws......(revision1 ;))
That was by intention....I drew the holes the size of the screws (10mm) to see if i had any overlapping issues with the chuck mounting bolts....
Cheers Ross
 

Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
Thanks Peter for your advise. If my understanding is correct, working between centers is the best way, but for pinions with very fine axles, hollow centers or for internal works, the chuck remains necessary, is that correct?
The good thing is that I have centerpoints, so at least I could learn basics with them.

Peter, I will be glad to make pictures tomorrow.

Thanks,

Michel
 

Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
My Deckel

Hey Peter,

After some trial and error, I finally succeeded in inserting pictures of my new friend
 

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Michel L.

Plastic
Joined
May 4, 2020
Location
Antwerpen
By the way, does anybody recognise this sliding headstock? It was part of the bulck I bought, but the center point is far too high to be used with the helicoïdal divider. Looking at the paint, it seems to be genuine Deckel, but I don't know what it's application is.IMG_20210310_144558.jpg
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
By the way, does anybody recognise this sliding headstock? It was part of the bulck I bought, but the center point is far too high to be used with the helicoïdal divider. Looking at the paint, it seems to be genuine Deckel, but I don't know what it's application is.View attachment 316135


That slides onto the dovetail for the vertical head. Or onto an overarm that is specifically for that purpose, but which you do not seem to have. It is the arbor support for horizontal milling. I suppose it could also be used for work support, as a tailstock, if you want to turn work held by a collet or chuck on the horizontal spindle. There is an overarm without the tail piece for sale in the for sale thread currently.
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Actually think that center is for the overarm on the standard dividing head allowing center to center work on the dividing head.

The outboard bearing for the horizontal milling setup is different in that it had a bushing to carry the plain end bearing on the end of a horizontal arbor.....
The FP1 version has a small bushing (style "A" arbor) while teh FP2/3 outboard support is larger for a bigger style bearing (style"B" arbor)

There is currently the overarm for milling in the "for sale" section,
All the dovetails are the same size...including the dividing head. The dividing head overarm is smaller in height and is a bit longer. The FP1 is a bit smaller than the heavier FP2/3 overarm, but
either will work.

Cheers Ross
 

Lowpass

Plastic
Joined
Apr 21, 2017
Spiral Miller

Hey Peter,

After some trial and error, I finally succeeded in inserting pictures of my new friend

Your post got me thinking about my Spiral Milling Attachment which I haven't messed with as of yet. Mine looks the same as yours with the Cat 40 taper and and s20x2 draw via the knurled collar on the back of headstock. My Fp1 is early 60s vintage and came with a fair amount of tooling but very little Cat 40. I do have a cat 40 to MT4 adapter which allows the use of the standard Deckel Mt4 collets for work holding in the Spiral Mill (pictures attached) . Something to consider if your setup is similar. Also have a chuck on my index attachment but this looks quite large for the Spiral Miller. The only other CAt40 piece I have is the shown in the last photo. Not sure what this one is used for...
 

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