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Deckel fp2 general questions and considerations during the renovation
- Thread starter volvo 140140
- Start date
- Replies 78
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ballen
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
I used my smaller rotary table, 250mm diameter.
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Good reason to obtain an alternative vertical spindle (precision boring head) ....
Or run horizontal and just interpolate the circle....
Cheers Ross
Or run horizontal and just interpolate the circle....
Cheers Ross
volvo 140140
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2018
How much wider did you do the slot ? Best Regards volvo 140140
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ballen
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Hi Ross,
I'm still blown away by the nice job you did on your FP3 (different thread).
In this thread, I'm looking at your photo showing the vertical head casting standing on a pair of 1-2-3 (or 2-4-6) blocks. I can't see how the casting is held down. Is it via T-nuts in the table and threaded rods coming up through the casting? I don't see anything "on top".
Cheers,
Bruce
I'm still blown away by the nice job you did on your FP3 (different thread).
In this thread, I'm looking at your photo showing the vertical head casting standing on a pair of 1-2-3 (or 2-4-6) blocks. I can't see how the casting is held down. Is it via T-nuts in the table and threaded rods coming up through the casting? I don't see anything "on top".
Cheers,
Bruce
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Bruce:
There is a heavy washer inside where the housing forms a step where the bevel gear bearing seats.There is washer with a step to locate in the bore that sets on the casting step.
Single bolt through a center hole. Cutting forces pretty light here...
Cleaned up the slot going down into the face of the "T" in small steps. Opened up the width of the "T" by using cutter comp (cheating really) when contouring the inside and outside.
Looked up the drawing file i made to cut the new "T" nuts.
Width : .795"
length ":1.220"
Bear in mind that the shape is contoured to fit the slot, no sharp edges.
Cheers Ross
There is a heavy washer inside where the housing forms a step where the bevel gear bearing seats.There is washer with a step to locate in the bore that sets on the casting step.
Single bolt through a center hole. Cutting forces pretty light here...
Cleaned up the slot going down into the face of the "T" in small steps. Opened up the width of the "T" by using cutter comp (cheating really) when contouring the inside and outside.
Looked up the drawing file i made to cut the new "T" nuts.
Width : .795"
length ":1.220"
Bear in mind that the shape is contoured to fit the slot, no sharp edges.
Cheers Ross
volvo 140140
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2018
Hi. I will try to cut up the t grooves and make new t nuts, it feels like the best thing to do. I will of course take as little as possible. but where would you think is the most you could take? Best regards volvo 140140
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volvo 140140
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2018
Ballen the angles you use how good were those 90 degrees so, do you have milling them too 90 degrees? Thinking about how you adjusted it if it wasn't 90 degrees, hope you understand what I mean best regards volvo 140140
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Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Not sure which angle you are referring to. As I recall I clocked the facing flange for concentricity as I rotated the rotary table, and for level (fixed Z) as I rotated the rotary table. Probably I got both within about 0.01mm of zero. Good enough for this! The vertical head has worked well ever since (and been rotated and then retrammed many times.)
PS: Pretty sure that I also checked that the flange face was perpendicular to the vertical spindle direction.
volvo 140140
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2018
okay thanks. I meant about your angles plate if they were 90 degrees to the table. I plan to use an angle plate but it is not milled on the inside, I think I will milling it so it will be straight to the face of the tabel. I have made the adapter that I intend to attach to the angle plate which then fits in the quill like you did. then it should be straight in ( y ) that direction i hope because this you cannot adjust when you have that plug in the quill. or maybe I'm thinking wrong.
I just need to set the center of the table and set it right to the left.
Best regards volvo 140140
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AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
No machinist worth his salt would just set things using an angle plate or vise and assume that things were true and square.....
All setups need to be verified as to truth...Never assume things are true or square....its a trap for the inexperienced.
Always verify the setup using known instruments....
If your part is not true correct using shims or scrape to adjust. If the part won't dial true with the cutting plane, you are in danger of making a mess of the repair....
The setup is everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Monkeys can cut metal, but it takes an understanding of the part and how it relates to the entire structure to get the setup where it makes sense......
Take the time to make sure things are where they should be, and their geometry is aligned as it should.
Cutting metal is the lowest order of the job..Work holding and alignments take precedence.
Cheers Ross
All setups need to be verified as to truth...Never assume things are true or square....its a trap for the inexperienced.
Always verify the setup using known instruments....
If your part is not true correct using shims or scrape to adjust. If the part won't dial true with the cutting plane, you are in danger of making a mess of the repair....
The setup is everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Monkeys can cut metal, but it takes an understanding of the part and how it relates to the entire structure to get the setup where it makes sense......
Take the time to make sure things are where they should be, and their geometry is aligned as it should.
Cutting metal is the lowest order of the job..Work holding and alignments take precedence.
Cheers Ross
ballen
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Hi Ross,
Of course this is entirely correct. I'm replying to you but my comment is meant for Volvo.
When I started off, I would (for example) line up the fixed face of a vise parallel to the X axis, then assume that the part I had clamped there was also parallel to the X axis. These days, as much as possible, I clamp a part then use test indicators to check the part's alignment relative to the axes. If it's close but not good enough, I typically loosen the clamping slightly (could be the vise rotation bolts for example, not the vise itself) then use a plastic-face or copper hammer to "tap" the part or the vise or the hold-down slightly, then check the part again and repeat before and after tightening. Machinists call this "clocking in the part". With some practice you can easily get parts aligned to 0.01mm along lengths of a couple of hundred mm. As much as possible, you should verify the "truth" of the part alignment with a test indicator just before you cut it. Typically you are checking alignment with respect to the X, Y or Z axes. Sometimes you are also checking alignment with respect to the spindle rotation or spindle axis or a rotary table axis.
In your case, when you have the head clamped to the angle plate and the angle plate clamped to the rotary table, you'll need to do multiple steps of this "loosen slightly, measure, tap, measure, tap, tighten" procedure, to get everything lined up, including the position of the angle plate on the table, and the position of the head on the angle plate. As Ross said, that setup takes most of the time. The actual cutting part is relatively quick in comparison.
If you can't get the part properly aligned with this procedure, then you have to scratch your head a bit, and modify your clamping setup. As Ross said, often this means putting in shims or scraping a bit off the part or adding another clamping element that can push or pull the part into alignment.
Cheers, Bruce
Of course this is entirely correct. I'm replying to you but my comment is meant for Volvo.
When I started off, I would (for example) line up the fixed face of a vise parallel to the X axis, then assume that the part I had clamped there was also parallel to the X axis. These days, as much as possible, I clamp a part then use test indicators to check the part's alignment relative to the axes. If it's close but not good enough, I typically loosen the clamping slightly (could be the vise rotation bolts for example, not the vise itself) then use a plastic-face or copper hammer to "tap" the part or the vise or the hold-down slightly, then check the part again and repeat before and after tightening. Machinists call this "clocking in the part". With some practice you can easily get parts aligned to 0.01mm along lengths of a couple of hundred mm. As much as possible, you should verify the "truth" of the part alignment with a test indicator just before you cut it. Typically you are checking alignment with respect to the X, Y or Z axes. Sometimes you are also checking alignment with respect to the spindle rotation or spindle axis or a rotary table axis.
In your case, when you have the head clamped to the angle plate and the angle plate clamped to the rotary table, you'll need to do multiple steps of this "loosen slightly, measure, tap, measure, tap, tighten" procedure, to get everything lined up, including the position of the angle plate on the table, and the position of the head on the angle plate. As Ross said, that setup takes most of the time. The actual cutting part is relatively quick in comparison.
If you can't get the part properly aligned with this procedure, then you have to scratch your head a bit, and modify your clamping setup. As Ross said, often this means putting in shims or scraping a bit off the part or adding another clamping element that can push or pull the part into alignment.
Cheers, Bruce
jim rozen
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2004
- Location
- peekskill, NY
"Cutting metal is the lowest order of the job..Work holding and alignments take precedence."
It's like painting. All the work is in the preperation. 90 percent of the time spend prepping the surface, ten percent
or so actually throwing paint around. Ten percent of the time or less, actually taking the cut.
It's like painting. All the work is in the preperation. 90 percent of the time spend prepping the surface, ten percent
or so actually throwing paint around. Ten percent of the time or less, actually taking the cut.
I finally got the new shims last night, I did not expect it to take this long from Germany, nearly 3 weeks... Today I have adjusted the gears in both directions and currently got a pretty darn nice contact pattern but sadly the noise is unchanged regardless of position of the gears.
I finally tried to start the mill with the drive engaged on the long reach head, but the vertical head gone, and it does make noise, but I put a piece of leather against the bevel gear to simulate load and the noise increased at once and sounded like it does when I run it with the vertical head on. So now I am again thinking it's not the meashing of the gears in the vertical head that make the noise but the inside of the long reach head.
I finally tried to start the mill with the drive engaged on the long reach head, but the vertical head gone, and it does make noise, but I put a piece of leather against the bevel gear to simulate load and the noise increased at once and sounded like it does when I run it with the vertical head on. So now I am again thinking it's not the meashing of the gears in the vertical head that make the noise but the inside of the long reach head.
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Dennis:
Nice test. Gears get noisy, some more than others, often with little wear. Its just the way things are.
Glad you got the vertical bevel gearing sorted and adjusted.
Likely the gears that transfer the drive to the long reach head are worn some (not much lube ever gets up there).
I would explore "open gear" lubes. Products that can be sprayed on a drive gear set that go on liquid then thicken to become more like grease that will cling to the gears.
SWEPCO 802 Open Gear Lube | Southwestern Petroleum Corporation
If applied to the upper drive gear might deliver some muting of the noise.
Might contact Singer to see if he has reproduced the gears. Replacement would most likely give relief.
Could also try having one of the gears coated (DLC) ...no experience here using coatings on gears, but it might help the noise issue.
Might also consider making a replacement gear from bronze....would need to be shaped or hobbed to have the proper form, but a different material likely would soften the noise.
OR......Ear plugs
Cheers Ross
Nice test. Gears get noisy, some more than others, often with little wear. Its just the way things are.
Glad you got the vertical bevel gearing sorted and adjusted.
Likely the gears that transfer the drive to the long reach head are worn some (not much lube ever gets up there).
I would explore "open gear" lubes. Products that can be sprayed on a drive gear set that go on liquid then thicken to become more like grease that will cling to the gears.
SWEPCO 802 Open Gear Lube | Southwestern Petroleum Corporation
If applied to the upper drive gear might deliver some muting of the noise.
Might contact Singer to see if he has reproduced the gears. Replacement would most likely give relief.
Could also try having one of the gears coated (DLC) ...no experience here using coatings on gears, but it might help the noise issue.
Might also consider making a replacement gear from bronze....would need to be shaped or hobbed to have the proper form, but a different material likely would soften the noise.
OR......Ear plugs
Cheers Ross
ballen
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
When I did my long reach head I had to fix something in the assembly for the gear that slides forward and back. As I recall, that gear rides on an axle carried in a pair of bronze bushings. The retaining screws for these were damaged or sheared. Did you check for such issues on your machine?
Ross those products sound worth a try at first, a new bronze gear sounds like a possible future project. You say shaped or hobbed, but to me it looks like a regular spur gear, shouldn't it be doable on the deckel with a shaped cutter. I assume it's a standard module gear so all I need is the right horizontal cutter and a decent dividing head.
Bruce I disassembled it partly last night and I had a look at the gear and I did not see anything broken on it. I also removed the "ring" so I could remove the bits and pieces supporting the lower gear and I did not find anything broken there either. I had not had this open before so I cleaned it out and smeared NBU-15 grease onto the gears and the needle cage as well. I thought they where a tiny bit quieter then.
There is a lot of backlash on these two gears I guess that is why they are noisy. Perhaps these open gear lube products would be better than NBU-15 to use on the gears in the vertical head and the long reach head? It's probably worth buying OPG for my lathe alone, the head stock there is not sitting in an oil bath so I have to open and lube the gears regularly, been using bicycle chain oil....
EDIT: Here are the latest prints I had. To me this looks pretty good. The patterns are centered and very wide and deeper down. Maybe another .1mm shim on the horizontal gear could be tried.
Bruce I disassembled it partly last night and I had a look at the gear and I did not see anything broken on it. I also removed the "ring" so I could remove the bits and pieces supporting the lower gear and I did not find anything broken there either. I had not had this open before so I cleaned it out and smeared NBU-15 grease onto the gears and the needle cage as well. I thought they where a tiny bit quieter then.
There is a lot of backlash on these two gears I guess that is why they are noisy. Perhaps these open gear lube products would be better than NBU-15 to use on the gears in the vertical head and the long reach head? It's probably worth buying OPG for my lathe alone, the head stock there is not sitting in an oil bath so I have to open and lube the gears regularly, been using bicycle chain oil....
EDIT: Here are the latest prints I had. To me this looks pretty good. The patterns are centered and very wide and deeper down. Maybe another .1mm shim on the horizontal gear could be tried.
ballen
Titanium
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
The 1974 parts book lists these as 6010 P6 C6. The P6 is enhanced precision, pretty much standard these days in SKF Explorer and similar bearings. The C6 sounds like an extra-large clearance, I have never seen that before. What bearing clearance (C0/Cn or C3) did you use? Did you study the markings on the old ones?
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Advantage to the Deckel rotary table is 1. It is very short and does not use up much of the vertical head room of the machine, this will be a big consideration on an FP1.
2. the table is relatively large , again for its height....More room for parts.
You will have to move the table to the edge of your work table if you have an FP2 or larger as the table is designed to have the hand crank overhang the edge of the "T" slot table . This works fine on the FP1 as the tables are small (narrow) ...To work center table on the larger work surface of the FP2 or FP3 usually a riser is used to give clearance to the hand crank......There is of course a factory riser for just such....
Deckel rotary tables can accept either degree micrometer collars on the hand crank shaft or dividing plates and sector....Which parts will interchange with the dividing head and spiral milling attachment.
The question about being able to mount the table vertically....Not needed!
You have a horizontal spindle....no need to flop the rotary.
Cheers Ross
2. the table is relatively large , again for its height....More room for parts.
You will have to move the table to the edge of your work table if you have an FP2 or larger as the table is designed to have the hand crank overhang the edge of the "T" slot table . This works fine on the FP1 as the tables are small (narrow) ...To work center table on the larger work surface of the FP2 or FP3 usually a riser is used to give clearance to the hand crank......There is of course a factory riser for just such....
Deckel rotary tables can accept either degree micrometer collars on the hand crank shaft or dividing plates and sector....Which parts will interchange with the dividing head and spiral milling attachment.
The question about being able to mount the table vertically....Not needed!
You have a horizontal spindle....no need to flop the rotary.
Cheers Ross
Last edited:
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