Deckel fp2 general questions and considerations during the renovation

[DennisCA]

I've tested today using no shims, .4mm .5mm .7mm and 1.2mm (1mm was the original). Yet to try the .9 and .2 combo but I don't think it will make any difference, none of these made any change to the sound coming from the gears. I went by sound instead of trying to check the pattern since having a good pattern from before didn't seem to matter so to work faster I went by ear.

I am wondering if I need to adjust the ring gear vertically in order to get a proper mesh, it doesn't seem to help moving the horizontal one in and out only. I am wondering if this is wear causing this. I assume the gears are meant to be adjustable for this and not replaced.

 

[65AMC]

Dennis,

Out of curiosity how is the fit of the vertical head where it rotates? Maybe there is some wear or something in that fit causing the head to sit slightly low and as a consequence the gear in the head to be tight on the mesh? Try rotating the head 90 degrees and see if it makes a difference, then try it completely upside down and see if it is quiet then.

Shawn

 

[volvo 140140]

^^^^
I only have the felt ring on the vertical spindle.



The thrust bearing is there but it's not shown in the picture. I remember it got left inside when I removed the parts. I got it out later though and cleaned and regreased it with NBU-15.

I never took apart the gear and bearings from the vertical head no, but I did that this week and put everything together again before this video. Those bearings looked just fine to me, I do believe the click click noise comes from the meshing of the two bevel gears.

Something is not right, maybe there is too much backlash, maybe I am completely off on my adjustements... Naybe I need to adjust the vertical ring bevel gear too, I assume that would require shims as well to go under the lowest thrust bearing.

Okay. I don't see that there should be anyone in the spare parts catalog either, assuming there should be no one on there then. Best regards volvo9393140

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[DennisCA]

Dennis,

Out of curiosity how is the fit of the vertical head where it rotates? Maybe there is some wear or something in that fit causing the head to sit slightly low and as a consequence the gear in the head to be tight on the mesh? Try rotating the head 90 degrees and see if it makes a difference, then try it completely upside down and see if it is quiet then.

Shawn

An interesting idea, it has always felt super tight however. I went out at once and tried it but no change.

 

[volvo 140140]

Hi. I have a question about bering that sits to the gear that drives the horizontal / vertical spindle. It says in spare parts catalog 7 = 2 Ring groove bearing DIN 625-CO 1 6010 GPR-50 x8O x 10.

My bering that was there it says. 6010 and has the dimensions 50x80x16 and then it says C01. Why are those 16 mm should have been 10 mm according to the spare parts catalog


My question is if anyone knows what C01 stands for, has been looking, but can not find nothing about it. Is that the class of bering?



What do you think I can buy regular standard bering like these?

Best regards volvo140140

 

[ballen]

Hi Dennis,

I have no experience or training with gears. But to me it sounds as if the mesh is too tight. On the head there is a bevel gear (A) whose rotation axis is vertical, and on the ram there is a bevel gear (B) whose rotation axis is horizontal. To open up the mesh you can move A up and down or B forward and back. Is it correct that up to this point you have been adjusting B? Is there any way that you can also adjust the vertical position of A with shims? I don't know if for small adjustments you can move either gear or if both A and B need to be adjusted together. Do you know?

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[DennisCA]

I have only been altering bevel gear B as you name it. As it came when I bought it the bevel gear had 1 mm of shims behind it.

I removed the shims completely and it made no difference to the clicking noise. I cannot get B further back without removing material from the back of the bevel gear. In the other thread I got my best pattern at .7mm shimming.

As for bevel gear A, the ring gear, I cannot move it higher up, I can only move it further down by adding shims on the bottom. I cannot see how it can be moved upwards without material removal.


I am not sure the gears are too tight, my reasons are:

-As the surfaced wear the meshing ought to become less tight over time.

-The spindle feels as if it has got rotational play, I know there is a lot of play in the spur gears that transfer power to gear A so that gear on it's own can move back and forth.

-I used paint to verify the contact patterns previously and I got a pretty good pattern at .7mm and it leaves the bottom of the teeth untouched, if the meshing was too tight I believe it would leave a mark further down towards the bottoms but they are untouched.

-I read the clicking noise can come from misaligned bevel gears, so I am thinking the ring gear (A) might need to come down or up, they might not align properly in the vertical axis, perhaps due to wear over time. I remember having read when searching PM about the vertical head becoming louder as it wore.

My last pattern I believe indicated a good wide contact but still high on the teeth. This also indicates I ought to try and move gear A downwards a little.

 

[65AMC]

Dennis,

I know this probably isn't the most precision item to check but how much rotation of the on off knob do you have after the gear is disengaged? Mine has very little and maybe some other people can chime in and give how theirs are. If there is more travel than normal after the gear is disengaged it may be that something is keeping that shaft from seating all the way. Just a thought anyway.

Shawn

 

[DennisCA]

I removed the spindle and I video'd the inside to get a visual on how the gears mesh.

This is with 0.8mm of shims, you can see that it's got quite a lot of backlash.
YouTube

Here is 1.8mm, I tried with 2mm but then it won't mesh.
YouTube

Less play but still the same sound is there, even a bit louder despite the meshing looking better. This is making me think the ring gear needs to come downwards, I think the bottom of the ring gears lower edges are impacting on the bevel gear teeth. And I think these marks are an indication of that. I wonder if the original 1mm of shim would be fine, if the ring gear came down a bit... I wonder if maybe it was shimmed from factory perhaps and was lost when the previous owner serviced it.

 

[DennisCA]

Dennis,

I know this probably isn't the most precision item to check but how much rotation of the on off knob do you have after the gear is disengaged? Mine has very little and maybe some other people can chime in and give how theirs are. If there is more travel than normal after the gear is disengaged it may be that something is keeping that shaft from seating all the way. Just a thought anyway.

Shawn

There is very little play for me when I try that so I don't think that is the issue.

 

[ballen]

Hi Dennis,

I removed the spindle and I video'd the inside to get a visual on how the gears mesh.

I don't understand the photo. Are these the two bevel gears? Which gear is the one with the horizontal axis and which gear is the one with the vertical axes? Which one are you calling the "ring gear"?

 

[DennisCA]

The photo is taken from the bottom of the vertical head casting, so it's gear A using the labels before that has the arrows on it. BTW the grease gives a good print here, indicating to me as well it needs to come down.

I've ordered some more shims, 50x62x0.1mm and also 0.2mm so as soon as I have those I can begin to attempt to shim gear A.

 

[ballen]

Dennis, the movies are very illuminating! I hope one of the experts here can watch these and give you feedback. I think that lowering the ring gear is a good thing to try.

Have you tried running it without the quill and spindle in place? Could those be pushing the gears out of alignment? I don’t think so, but easy to check!


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[DennisCA]

Yes I've run it with the spindle out and it makes the exact same noise, so the spindle can be ruled out.

 

[volvo 140140]

Hi guys. I wonder if you usually make bigger t bolts to the vertical head, My t slots are damaged at the edges they are not broken but the surface is not smooth anybody has a suggestion how to fix it, i'm thinking about making new bigger t slots what do you think about it?

Any ideas on how to do this? with just the horizontal spindle.

Best regards volvo 140140

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[DennisCA]

In this thread you can see how others have enlarged the t-slots and made new nuts:

Long-reach FP2 head (from circa 1964)

Unfortunately those procedures all used vertical spindles, but I would think that with a standing rotary head facing the horizontal spindle that it would be doable.


On my machine there was also some damage here, I only removed the burrs with diamond files and a dremel with fine diamond grinders until the nuts where able to glide around the whole way. Since then I have been careful not to tighten the nuts too hard.

 

[thanvg]

My head would like some work in the T slot department as well, some day.

I only have the 380 mm Deckel rotab and I am not too keen on mounting it on an angle plate I admit, I don't even have one large enough.

So, I am thinking about two approaches:
1. Mount the head on the rotab, fixed, centered and all. Take the whole assembly to a friend with a mill and mill the slot for 5 mins.

2. Mount the head on a face plate and turn it on the lathe! Use the same tool on the same holder, on the same DRO reading, but run the lathe regularly for the outer face and then in reverse for the inner face (after retracting and placing the tool further from the operator). I guess this would work, can't see why it wouldn't...

BR,
Thanos

 

[volvo 140140]

Hi. I also do not have enough large rotating table I only have a china of 200mm so this is unfortunately too small I think. Think about doing as dennis and just fix it as well as it goes by hand. But I might make new bigger t nuts. if I can make the hole bigger in any way
what do you think about do it by hand ? Best regards volvo140140

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[DennisCA]

At least now I know what minimum size requirement I should have for a rotary table purchase.

 

[thanvg]

I think if you make a nice fixture like Bruce's, you might be able to fit it on the 200 mm rotab.

Dennis I think just deburred it manually, didn't do anything to widen the T-slot and fit larger nuts. You can indeed fit longer nuts if you open up the hole a bit, even manually, but it's the increase in width that's more important in the particular case.