Deckel FP3 Buying Help

[Peter from Holland]

You have 40um scales and 20um scales And also readouts for 20um or 40 um only So check what scales you have to be sure your Dro will fit
Peter

 

[alcro1998]

You have 40um scales and 20um scales And also readouts for 20um or 40 um only So check what scales you have to be sure your Dro will fit
Peter

Thanks for letting me know. I probably would not have realized that and gotten the wrong unit!

 

[alcro1998]

Now the next questions is... Do I need a FP3NC as well? I was considering a FP3NC When this one popped up a day later. The FP3NC is a lot closer and would be my first CNC. I really don't know crap about cnc stuff but has been an interest of mine for some time.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Great question.....I have both, and it all depends on the condition of the machines and weather the control has any issues.
I run my FP4NC every day. My work is repair and ones/two's. Use my FP4NC like most guys would run a Bridgeport....small jobs etc.
Its my daily driver. Don't run the FP3 very often, mainly when the FP4NC is tied up on a setup and i need to mill something.
I have been lucky i guess. My FP4NC has been drop dead reliable, few problems even though the control dates from 86'.....

Thing is that the FP3 will always be able to make parts...and repairs if needed will be something most can do on their own.
The FP-NC's are different...they are dead if the control is down for any reason..No work around...Fix the control or you have a nice chunk of scrap.

Good news is the control is made with large format boards that are populated with discrete components and there is documentation on the wiring and electronics.
They are great machines, very capable and accurate.

Here is the general breakdown:
Came with Dialog controls (2,3 &4)
Also were available with the Hurco control and 3-M control.
Easily the greatest population is the Dialog controls. Dialog4 being the most desirable with a better cutter comp setup , graphics and may have helical interpolation.
All versions AFAIK can handle a 4th axis...wiring and card slots already part of the machine.

First generation FP-NC's have a top spindle speed of 3150 (bit slow by today's standards). Machine architecture is similar to the manual FP3 you have been looking at...with the vertical head on a casting that sits above the "Y" slide. To use the horizontal spindle the vertical head is swiveled to clear the slide casting and the upper part moved to the rear sliding on the"Y" slide. Down side to this arrangement is that the vertical head must be trammed when returning to run vertical....

FP3NC and FP4NC will accept the driven accessories from the FP2 or FP3 manual machines (precision boring head, slotting head)
The FP2NC will accept the driven accessories that go with the manual FP1.

Later versions of the FP-NC's were dubbed "Flip Head" and those machines has a different setup to access the horizontal spindle.
There the vertical head is attached to a"door" that as the nick name implies "flips up" to expose the horizontal spindle under the door.....
On this setup , one can go from vertical to horizontal and back without any tramming...
Down side is that the "Flip" setup has a bit less of vertical head room.

Best part of the NC setup is the operator interface.....hands down best control interface ever.....Pretty much spoils you.

If you post some pictures we can give better analysis of what is being offered.....

Cheers Ross

 

[alcro1998]

Here is the FP3NC. I really have no idea what I am looking at here but the person said it was a 1984 and has been sitting for a couple years. I think it is possible that the person selling the machine does not know much about it but I have not talked directly to them yet. They want $2500 for the machine which I don't think is worth it if they don't know anything about it. I also am not sure if I would be willing to really pay more than $1000 for it since I really don't need it and will have the other FP3 to spend more money on. These are all the pictures I have of it. I do not think it comes with anything else.

A flip up head would be really cool and would make the horizontal spindle a ton more useful.

 

[jreiland]

Thank you for the help! It does have the controls cabinet luckily.

I’m sure I’ll need some help once I get it. The plan as of now is to get another heidenhein dro unit and just use the machine with the power feed and dro. I don’t think I need the other features and maybe I can keep an eye out and buy an original control some day.

Very excited to get the mill as it seems to be a very nice unit.

I have the stock heidenhein scale in X and new accurate for y and z. Accurite is made by heidenhein now. I had to buy a signal converter to make it work, so far no issues. The active system would be neat to have but maybe not worth the efforts.
jon

 

[AlfaGTA]

I have had both...FP2 with the "Active" setup and my current FP2 and FP2 straight manual (w/DRO)
Personally i would not layout big money to make that FP3 have the "Active" feature. I find the interface a bit cumbersome.
Others here might disagree....I personally just never felt that it was all that great.

I would opt for a nice ND 750 or if you want to really go forward the second gen Positip readout.(850 i believe) That would give you the ability to display angular moves (4th axis)
should you ever find a 2038 "Tool Makers Table" That would be the one that has a Heidenhain encoder on the table rotary position....Angle and rotate would make that FP3 a real "do anything" jewel.

That FP3NC is a first gen machine setup (3150 spindle) with the 3-M control (similar to the Dialog4 control)
Someone here will chime in to set this straight, but I think that control has memory retained parameters...Which means that if it has been off power for years there is a
100% chance that those settings are now lost.....
Should be able to re-enter the settings but you need a list...Might be available from FPS or Singer.....Its something to consider.
Also that machine was made without hand wheels.....really not an issue (you won't use them after the first month of use) as it should have an MPG (manual pulse generator) to make positioning moves.

For my money that is a better choice to invest in over making the "Active" function on that FP3.
That is a real 3-D contouring machine, not a simple point to point arrangement as you would have with with a restored "Active" setup....

Cheers Ross

 

[alcro1998]

I would opt for a nice ND 750 or if you want to really go forward the second gen Positip readout.(850 I believe) That would give you the ability to display angular moves (4th axis)
should you ever find a 2038 "Tool Makers Table" That would be the one that has a Heidenhain encoder on the table rotary position....Angle and rotate would make that FP3 a real "do anything" jewel.

For my money that is a better choice to invest in over making the "Active" function on that FP3.
That is a real 3-D contouring machine, not a simple point to point arrangement as you would have with with a restored "Active" setup....

I am thinking that the ND 750 would be exactly what I am looking for. I don't need rotary position. A 2038 "Tool Makers Table" sounds pricey as well This machine is already more than I need. A clapped out Bridgeport would probably do me just fine but I love nice machine tools so here I am.

I really have no interest at all in the Active setup. If it was there that would but cool but it would also probably cost me as much as the FP3NC to get it running if not more. I might go check out the FP3NC and talk with the seller a bit more this week since I will be in the area anyways. I think it would be a neat machine and I have been waiting for the right NC machine to come along.

Thanks again!

Chris

 

[alcro1998]

So I am looking at tooling and I think I would like to go with CAT 40 tooling since it seems like there is an abundance of it and its a relatively cheap. Can I make a new drawbar and use CAT tooling without a stud? I could make some Deckel studs but I think it would be easier to just use a threaded drawbar.

The other question is I found a Heidenhain VRZ 775 DRO, it look like it would work for the machine. Would this work for the machine? The ND 750 looks nice but this one I found locally and it is a lot cheaper than the ND 750.

 

[Peter from Holland]

A ND750 can switch between 20 and 40Um IIRC
Look up the scale type and then look in the manual on their website if it is 20 or 40Um
Here at least you can download the manual for the VRZ775

HEIDENHAIN O.M.A. Controls

content.heidenhain.de

To me it seems the VRZ775 is a 20Um and reads correctly with the LS107 -LS403 LS404- LS703-LS704 or these ones with a C behind it
But make sure to check it yourself
It can handle 40Um scales too but it dubbles the distance then

Peter

 

[alcro1998]

A ND750 can switch between 20 and 40Um IIRC
Look up the scale type and then look in the manual on their website if it is 20 or 40Um
Here at least you can download the manual for the VRZ775

HEIDENHAIN O.M.A. Controls

content.heidenhain.de

To me it seems the VRZ775 is a 20Um and reads correctly with the LS107 -LS403 LS404- LS703-LS704 or these ones with a C behind it
But make sure to check it yourself
It can handle 40Um scales too but it dubbles the distance then

Peter

I'll just wait until I get the machine to figure out what I need. I will also make a new thread since this one has served it purpose and I bought the machine

 

[ballen]

Just saw this thread. From the looks of the machine, from what you have written, and from the price, I can only repeat what Peter has already written: BUY BUY BUY.

 

[alcro1998]

Just saw this thread. From the looks of the machine, from what you have written, and from the price, I can only repeat what Peter has already written: BUY BUY BUY

Thanks for the advice. I have put a deposit down and the guy gave me 4 weeks to come get it since I am a good 500 miles away from the machine. I am redoing my trailer and should be done this week so I think I will be getting the machine next weekend. I am very excited to get it. Should be an awesome mill to use.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Ask the seller for the documentation of the machine if he has it
Not a dealbraker as most if not all is available somewhere on the WWW but anyhow
The electrical diagram I find the most important always

Peter

 

[alcro1998]

UPDATE:

Deckel made it home Saturday!

The machines has 20um scales.
I received some documentation but have not gone through it yet to see what is there.
The screw that has the end broken off feels very smooth through the whole travel so I would assume it is not bent. The broken piece was also provided.
The knee handle shaft is very bent but still feels smooth and the handle is alright. I think I will just make a new shaft instead of trying to bend it back if not too difficult.

The mill looks to be in very good shape after the initial inspection today. The ways seem to be in good shape and everything is very smooth. About 0.15mm backlash on x and y which seems very good. Nothing seems broken besides the handle and shaft end.

It seems like my worst problems are going to be electrical related. But I have not looked into those quite yet. Not sure if I will be able to salvage the old controls or will need to start fresh. I don't think starting fresh will be too difficult since I do not plan on getting a new TNC 113 controller.

The one thing I have not been able to figure out is what the 4th 9-pin connector for the TNC controller? I have seen pictures where there is a 4th readout on the controller but I do not know what the purpose is. Do I need this readout for a standard 3 axis dro? I also think I will go with the VRZ 775 as the unit supports 20um scales, is cheaper and local to me.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me thus far!

 

[AlfaGTA]

Pretty sure that the TNC 113 has only three inputs. (3 axis)
That machine might at one time have been fitted with the 2038 "Tool Makers" table that tilts and swivels in two directions, plus has table rotation via handwheel.
That rotation is usually (not always) fitted with a Heidenhain rotary encoder that directly reads out the table rotation ....Machines so fitted need an additional DRO (1 axis)box to read the rotation....Note not all Heidenhain DRO's are capible of displaying rotary degrees of rotation.....

Looks like this:

Table like this:

Cheers Ross

 

[ballen]

The mill looks to be in very good shape after the initial inspection today. The ways seem to be in good shape and everything is very smooth. About 0.15mm backlash on x and y which seems very good. Nothing seems broken besides the handle and shaft end.

The "rule of thumb" in Germany, where these machines are quite common, is that if the X-axis backlash is less than 1mm, then the machine ways are probably not worn out. The 0.15mm of X backlash is very good, and you might even be able to reduce that a bit by adjusting the preload of the bearings at either end of the lead screw. If the axis are smooth and the spindles run true and quiet, then you're all set.

 

[alcro1998]

I think

Pretty sure that the TNC 113 has only three inputs. (3 axis)
That machine might at one time have been fitted with the 2038 "Tool Makers" table that tilts and swivels in two directions, plus has table rotation via handwheel.
That rotation is usually (not always) fitted with a Heidenhain rotary encoder that directly reads out the table rotation ....Machines so fitted need an additional DRO (1 axis)box to read the rotation....Note not all Heidenhain DRO's are capible of displaying rotary degrees of rotation.....

I think you are right about this. I was looking a bit closer today and the extra 9 pin connector does not look like it came originally with the unit. It is just zip tied to the other cable sleeves and goes off somewhere in the knee. I wish this table was still with my machine. Looks sweet!

 

[Peter from Holland]

I think

I think you are right about this. I was looking a bit closer today and the extra 9 pin connector does not look like it came originally with the unit. It is just zip tied to the other cable sleeves and goes off somewhere in the knee. I wish this table was still with my machine. Looks sweet!

I would trade that angle table on your machine with a 2236 table in a hartbeat if you were closer

Peter

 

[alcro1998]

I would trade that angle table on your machine with a 2236 table in a hartbeat if you were closer

Peter

Yeah I would assume I just need the universal table since it can do everything. The Netherlands is a bit of a ways away though.