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Deckel High Speed Head Reversable?

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Was the Deckel High Speed Head designed to spin in only one direction, or can the motor be run in reverse?

On a factory original 1964 FP2, the power connector is polarized, and the on/off switch is just that, on or off. There is no provision for reversing. I suspect that somewhere in the powertrain there may be threaded retainers that are handed, and designed for one-directional rotation.
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
On a factory original FP2, the power connector is polarized, and the on/off switch is just that, on or off. There is no provision for reversing. I suspect that somewhere in the powertrain there may be threaded retainers that are handed, and designed for one-directional rotation.

I'm pretty sure the OP's machine is a new FPS machine with two motors, one for spindle, one for feeds?
My new to me last generation FP3, it has forward and reverse?
On the last generation machines, the feed motor is separate, spindle rotation IIRC, is not an issue?

19942_100_9.jpg

I'm sure others will chime in to confirm......

Kevin
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
Not related to my new FPS machine. I have a traditional FP1 high speed head (which I will be putting on the FPS), but which is original Deckel manufacturer many years ago. The original power cord on this head had no method of reversing the electrical which has led me to believe it is designed for non-reverse operation, but wanted to confirm with folks that are more knowledgeable.

You can see the head in this photo (right cabinet, far right top position):

IMG_20210512_170618.jpg
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
Also, the high speed head was repainted by FPS to match the machine, thus the whitish color versus the traditional green.
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
Not related to my new FPS machine. I have a traditional FP1 high speed head (which I will be putting on the FPS), but which is original Deckel manufacturer many years ago. The original power cord on this head had no method of reversing the electrical which has led me to believe it is designed for non-reverse operation, but wanted to confirm with folks that are more knowledgeable.

You can see the head in this photo (right cabinet, far right top position):

View attachment 334016

The reverse function would be done by the spindle direction switch in the control cabinet?

Does your machine have a forward/reverse switch…….I don’t think it matters what direction the high speed head turns as far as the hardware is concerned?

Beautiful machine, BTW!

Kevin
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
The reverse function would be done by the spindle direction switch in the control cabinet?

Does your machine have a forward/reverse switch…….I don’t think it matters what direction the high speed head turns as far as the hardware is concerned?

Beautiful machine, BTW!

Kevin

The high speed head just has a simple 3-phase plug, that's all. Turns on as soon as electrical applied to the plug. This is totally unrelated to the mill, the high speed head just sits on top channel mount, its operation is totally independent of the mill.

Sometimes having reverse on the head could be somewhat more convenient....the Rusnok head for example has reversable motor and was designed as such.
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
You can see the head in this photo (right cabinet, far right top position)
View attachment 334016

That looks identical to my FP2 high-speed head, which as I said above, has no factory provision for reversing. But I suggest that you ask FPS, I am curious what they have to say.

That's a nice collection of heads and accessories. One comment though. In the bottom left compartment, it appears that the mating surface of the mounting flange of the universal-type rotary table (the one on the right) has been painted. Or is it just the lighting? That surface should be scraped for contact, not painted.
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
That looks identical to my FP2 high-speed head, which as I said above, has no factory provision for reversing. But I suggest that you ask FPS, I am curious what they have to say.

That's a nice collection of heads and accessories. One comment though. In the bottom left compartment, it appears that the mating surface of the mounting flange of the universal-type rotary table (the one on the right) has been painted. Or is it just the lighting? That surface should be scraped for contact, not painted.

Not painted, just distorting lighting...that is original from FPS (everything original and new from FPS except for the fine grinding head, fine boring head, FP1 riser, and high speed head)
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
The high speed head just has a simple 3-phase plug, that's all. Turns on as soon as electrical applied to the plug. This is totally unrelated to the mill, the high speed head just sits on top channel mount, its operation is totally independent of the mill.

Sometimes having reverse on the head could be somewhat more convenient....the Rusnok head for example has reversable motor and was designed as such.

The high speed head plugs directly into the machine control cabinet, as all the attachments are designed to do, the head is controlled just like the machine spindle would be?

If the high speed head was powered by an external source, you would then bypass the safety portion of the control!

When you plug in a centering scope into the cabinet, the machine spindle cannot be energized, otherwise, you would destroy your scope!

I’m unsure, if you have the high speed head running on the last generation machines, if the horizontal spindle would be turning, I would think that only the high speed head would be powered?

That’s not to say you couldn’t put a drum switch directly on the head to make it more convenient, but then you still have to select high/low speed on the operator's console?

Kevin
 
Last edited:

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
First question i have is why would anyone wish to run the high speed head in reverse.....You got some left hand reverse cut end mills that you need to run?
Remember this is a head designed to run small tools....
Precludes the boring head or face milling etc.....Don't think one would power tap using the high speed head....

At any rate there are different high speed heads......
The later "Square" style having the short base can easily run in reverse if needed.

On the early (3150rpm) FP-NC's there is a socket on the main electrical cabinet that is for the high speed head.
The socket is controlled via relays that are energized via the operators spindle push buttons and it can run either froward or reverse depending on which direction spindle button is depressed...
Setup also disables the main spindle motor....

Later NC machines that were fitted with the two speed shift for the vertical spindle eliminated the high speed head socket and relays....Not needed as the main spindle was now capable of running at 6300 RPM.

Early FP's had a socket on the cabinet that used the main motor start PB to activate ...If the machine has only froward (single motor) then the high speed head is single direction as well....
Not aware of any physical reason that the head couldn't run in reverse...just don't see the reason one would need to do so.

Believe the later "Active" machines have a switch to set the direction of the main spindle motor and this, i believe, sets the direction of the high speed head if connected to the proper cabinet outlet.
On the late machines the main spindle motor is blocked from running when the high speed head is connected as there is a feed motor to allow axis movement.

Cheers Ross
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
The high speed head plugs directly into the machine control cabinet, as all the attachments are designed to do, the head is controlled just like the machine spindle would be?

If the high speed head was powered by an external source, you would then bypass the safety portion of the control!

When you plug in a centering scope into the cabinet, the machine spindle cannot be energized, otherwise, you would destroy your scope!

I’m unsure, if you have the high speed head running on the last generation machines, if the horizontal spindle would be turning, I would think that only the high speed head would be powered?

That’s not to say you couldn’t put a drum switch directly on the head to make it more convenient, but then you still have to select high/low speed on the operator's console?

Kevin

We must be talking different generations of machines. My FPS (which is clone of the latest generation Deckel Aktiv Digital FP1) does not have such power sources at the control panel. With respect to safety, don't really see an issue having separate power control for the high speed head versus somehow running it through the control panel. My actual solution is to put a VFD inline between high-speed head and power outlet which does have an on/off switch and also controls speed. The high speed head as far as I'm concerned is just an add-on to the machine to give faster spindle speed, and one just uses the X/Y/Z on the machine and does not turn on the built-in spindles.
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
First question i have is why would anyone wish to run the high speed head in reverse.....You got some left hand reverse cut end mills that you need to run?
Remember this is a head designed to run small tools....
Precludes the boring head or face milling etc.....Don't think one would power tap using the high speed head....

At any rate there are different high speed heads......
The later "Square" style having the short base can easily run in reverse if needed.

On the early (3150rpm) FP-NC's there is a socket on the main electrical cabinet that is for the high speed head.
The socket is controlled via relays that are energized via the operators spindle push buttons and it can run either froward or reverse depending on which direction spindle button is depressed...
Setup also disables the main spindle motor....

Later NC machines that were fitted with the two speed shift for the vertical spindle eliminated the high speed head socket and relays....Not needed as the main spindle was now capable of running at 6300 RPM.

Early FP's had a socket on the cabinet that used the main motor start PB to activate ...If the machine has only froward (single motor) then the high speed head is single direction as well....
Not aware of any physical reason that the head couldn't run in reverse...just don't see the reason one would need to do so.

Believe the later "Active" machines have a switch to set the direction of the main spindle motor and this, i believe, sets the direction of the high speed head if connected to the proper cabinet outlet.
On the late machines the main spindle motor is blocked from running when the high speed head is connected as there is a feed motor to allow axis movement.

Cheers Ross

Ross, very good information, thx. Given that I'll be powering the high speed head with separate VFD not connected to the control panel, just wanted to make sure I handled all possible usage scenarios. If the high speed head was never intended to run in reverse, no big deal, thats how I'm setup now. I had just considered another head, the Rusnok, that runs at similar speeds and does in fact have a reversable spindle and was designed to do so. Was just curious whether Deckel had the same thought process. Agree that this is a rare scenario.
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Always found the FPS regenerated Deckel clones a bit of a funny deal.....
Can't understand why they stayed with a full compliment gearbox for the spindle drive.
Would have thought an AC inverter rated motor with actual positive encoder feed back and a true spindle drive along with a two or three range gearbox
to be a superior setup and likely less expensive to manufacturer that would run cooler and quieter....and give a wider speed range.

I understand why Deckel stayed with the gearbox as long as they did even with the NC's , but a new machine built today with old expensive tech....i don't get it....

Cheers Ross
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
We must be talking different generations of machines. My FPS (which is clone of the latest generation Deckel Aktiv Digital FP1) does not have such power sources at the control panel. With respect to safety, don't really see an issue having separate power control for the high speed head versus somehow running it through the control panel. My actual solution is to put a VFD inline between high-speed head and power outlet which does have an on/off switch and also controls speed. The high speed head as far as I'm concerned is just an add-on to the machine to give faster spindle speed, and one just uses the X/Y/Z on the machine and does not turn on the built-in spindles.

I didn't realize they got rid of the sockets for the powered accessories?

Kevin
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
Always found the FPS regenerated Deckel clones a bit of a funny deal.....
Can't understand why they stayed with a full compliment gearbox for the spindle drive.
Would have thought an AC inverter rated motor with actual positive encoder feed back and a true spindle drive along with a two or three range gearbox
to be a superior setup and likely less expensive to manufacturer that would run cooler and quieter....and give a wider speed range.

I understand why Deckel stayed with the gearbox as long as they did even with the NC's , but a new machine built today with old expensive tech....i don't get it....

Cheers Ross

I believe that FPS is just working off the Deckel design exactly as it was at time of bankruptcy, most likely they don't want to invest the money to re-engineer the product. And yes, they could have done a lot of nice improvements, BUT it seems the market is moving away from manual machines and certainly away from manual machines of the small FP1 size. Kunzmann on the other hand departed from the Deckel scheme and is doing some innovation with a newer design.
 

drcoelho

Stainless
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Location
Los Altos
Got word back from FPS, they indicate that the high speed head is not normally run in reverse, but they hinted that one could replace the motor with one designed for reverse operation and that would work, so I guess the spindle can reverse, but the OEM motor does not. They were also skeptical about why anyone would need/want to reverse the motor ;)
 

poyo

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Location
Prague - CZ
Not related to my new FPS machine. I have a traditional FP1 high speed head (which I will be putting on the FPS), but which is original Deckel manufacturer many years ago. The original power cord on this head had no method of reversing the electrical which has led me to believe it is designed for non-reverse operation, but wanted to confirm with folks that are more knowledgeable.

You can see the head in this photo (right cabinet, far right top position):

View attachment 334016

I hate everyone that has all those cool accessories :D I am envious!!!
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
To me it looks like those original motors are 3phase motors So swapping 2 leads makes the motor go into reverse
No need for a motorswap
If you put a VFD on it the reversing could be done on that device
Peter
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Hi Ross,

I understand why Deckel stayed with the gearbox as long as they did even with the NC's , but a new machine built today with old expensive tech....i don't get it....

This might be for the German market. People buy Deckel machines because they are classics. Most of the people who are trained as apprentices in Germany, even today, spend time using them. I have heard of several companies and labs which, each year or two pick one of their old Deckel machines and send it to Singer to refurbish. So FPS might be responding to that desire, for a classic machines, unchanged from what they were five decades ago. After all, if people want a modern machine, they won't be going to FPS.

I'm not saying that this mentality is right, just saying that I can understand if this is FPS's approach.

Cheers,
Bruce
 








 
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