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Dialog 11 hangs after CMOS CHECKSUM OK

PaulieTheKid

Plastic
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Location
The Netherlands
When transferring a program to my FP4-60T (dialog 11) today, the transfer suddenly stopt .
After I aborted the transmission, with intentions of trying it again, the control froze and didn’t respond to any key anymore.
So, I shut down the control and switched both of the main switches off.
When rebooting, all checks in the selftest are checked and okay, but after that the control hangs and displays the following message: CMOS CHECKSUM OK.

On the NSV, F2 is shown on the 7-segment displays.

Also none of the LED's on the NPC are turned on. When I reboot again and press the reset button on the NPC, the run LED turns on, but the control still hangs with the same message displayed.

Does anybody have a list with NSV error codes or know's how to solve the problem? I do have the orange book, but there is nothing in it about the Grundig SPS (PLC) unit, only about the machine and the Bosch drives.

Don’t know what the F2 code means and if it normally appears when the machine is working fine.
I believe when rebooting that FF is shown briefly.

It’s a bummer because I was just working on a few parts for a new customer…

Thanks, Paul
 

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The message F.2 is a normal stage of the boot-up and not an error in itself.

F.2 in german is: "Warten auf Anstoss 'Uebernehme Maschinendaten' "

Sort of "waiting for queing ' take-over of machine data'

I do not know much or anything about this, but maybe, if machine data is the PLC data, it is not getting that data from the NPC card. The PLC data (SPS) is in 2 EPROMs on the NPC card.
 
I agree with Martin that F.2 probably doesn't mean anything that would be helpful in pinpointing the actual problem. This is a strange one as most of my D11 problems involved hangups in the self test, but yours is not hanging up there but only afterwards. Only suggestion I can think of would be to pull out NPC module and reseat and/or apply Stabilant to all socketed IC's and see if that helps.
 
Took a closer look at the NPC card today and discoverd what looked like a blown capacitor. After I replaced it, I was eager to turn the machine back on although to no effect. Stuck in the same problem.

About the LED's on the NPC card. Sometimes the "Not Ready" LED turns on, but not always. Most of the times when rebooting, all the LED's are off and when I press the reset button, the Run LED shows up afther a few seconds. The "Ready" LED never turns on. I think that when the Ready LED turns on, the machine would start up like normal.

Don't know what to do now...

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Took a closer look at the NPC card today and discoverd what looked like a blown capacitor. After I replaced it, I was eager to turn the machine back on although to no effect. Stuck in the same problem.

About the LED's on the NPC card. Sometimes the "Not Ready" LED turns on, but not always. Most of the times when rebooting, all the LED's are off and when I press the reset button, the Run LED shows up afther a few seconds. The "Ready" LED never turns on. I think that when the Ready LED turns on, the machine would start up like normal.

Don't know what to do now...
Are there IC's in sockets in NPC and did you reseat them if so ? Re capacitors, yeah sometimes a capacitor will be blown but it's not critical to the circuit so replacing it will not help. But other times one is critical, so it would be good to check them all....esp the electrolytic types like you show..and esp that physical size and smaller....the large ones almost never go bad. You can check them without removing them, with an ESR meter like Capacitor Wizard. But also check them for dead short with a regular multimeter. I suppose the problem could be somewhere other than NPC, but I suspect the problem is in the NPC somewhere.

Also, since I have no idea how much electronics you know, I have to ask, you did pay attention to positive and negative positions on the replacement capacitor, yes ?

These are the situations where it sure is nice to have two D11 machines (esp if they run the same software versions...but that is not always essential depending on the module in question), so you can switch modules to pin point for sure where the problem lies.
 
Thanks for helping me out. I know a thing or two about electronics. I placed the capacitor the right way, had to put two 100uF capacitors parallel to get close to 220uF as the original was. It's very hard to examine the board any further since most of the other components are IC's. Everything looks good, no other signs of a burned component and nothing smells funny.

How can I find out what kind of software version the control has?


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How can I find out what kind of software version the control has?
In the first photo, the two Eproms on the little separate card....software version may be printed on those. Also, should be a large sticker on the right side of the D11 module box that has software versions (usually in horrible handwriting so you can barely tell what is actually written)

Re your NPC....I forgot that is the module that has to do with SPS. See those 18 IC's in the middle of the second photo ? Those are static ram IC's and one of those going bad is usually what is wrong with NPC. HOWEVER...usually the problem presents itself as not completing the Self Test for SPS....and the fact that your D11 does complete SPS check is a little different so I'm not sure a static ram chip is the problem in your case...but usually that is the problem with that module.

I once removed all 18 of those static ram IC's. I got good enough at desoldering to remove them intact and without board trace damage but it still was quite time consuming. I removed perhaps 4 or 5 per day at night. I finally found the bad one at about number 15 but went ahead and replaced the other 3 anyway. (plus at the time, I didn't know for sure only one was bad) If you are wondering how I knew when I found the bad one, click link below...

Model 575A, Digital IC Tester - B&K Precision

The static rams are long obsolete...but are still available on the "new old stock" market. I soldered in sockets rather than soldering in the new IC's directly.

Having said all that, even though there is good possibility one of those static rams is at the root of your problem, seems to me you really need to beg, borrow or steal another NPC to be absolutely sure the problem is at least on that particular board before going to that much labor. (plus the NOS IC's aren't free..seem like I had to pay over $6 each for mine)

And btw, it doesn't matter which software version the borrowed NPC is as all you do is temporarily switch the 4 eproms from your board to the borrowed one. The software is in the eproms. And of course you can simply buy a "new" NPC from FPS in Germany....but here again, quite a cringer if you don't know for absolute sure that is the root of your problem since they are quite expensive.
 
Here's a pic from the sticker on the module box. Isn't there another way to check the IC's when they are still in place? That sure would be nice.

Maybe there's a problem with the CMOS checksum, because the control hangs with the message "CMOS CHECKSUM OK". So maybe the checksum isn't so okay after all, right?


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Haven't checked the Saft 3.6V battery yet. Did change the battery pack in the NSV last spring, measured it today and was nicely at around 4V.
The Saft battery is in the NSP module, right? What are the effects of changing that one? Do you lose all parameters, tool data, etc. when changing?
 
Here's a pic from the sticker on the module box. Isn't there another way to check the IC's when they are still in place? That sure would be nice.
That's not the sticker that tells software. Unfortunately there is no way to check IC's on the board...even a Huntron Tracker with identical board, identical IC's to compare signal signatures is of no use unless the IC has a dead short...which is unlikely.
 
Haven't checked the Saft 3.6V battery yet. Did change the battery pack in the NSV last spring, measured it today and was nicely at around 4V.
If the NSV battery pack was low, boot up would stop at SPS...no green "yes's" but one red "0000"
The Saft battery is in the NSP module, right? What are the effects of changing that one? Do you lose all parameters, tool data, etc. when changing?
I forgot where it is but that is highly unlikely to be your problem. If it gets low, machine will still boot up but you will have no parameters. I suppose there is a tiny possibility that a "hard reboot" achieved by removing/reinstalling the Saft battery and reinstalling paramenters might fix your problem. I doubt it, but maybe...

FWIW, I observed my D11 booting up today and as suspected F.2 is just one sequence before F.1 and when machine is fully booted up, goes to 0.0. In other words, F.2 just tells you where in the sequence that boot up stopped, it tells you nothing about why it stopped.

Have you checked all the board traces under stereo microscope ? Always the possiblity of a trace failure.

If you decide to try replacing static ram IC's the newer equivalent part number is UM6167.
 
FWIW, if you do decide to remove and check IC's, I can offer some suggestions regarding equipment needed and technique to remove them intact. It's really easier and quicker than the crude way that involves destroying the IC by snipping the legs one so often sees in Youtube videos or books, if you have the right desoldering equipment and tip size. In fact the desolder tip size is critical for success in this case with such small legs in such tight spaces. Also the BK IC tester can sometimes be found used on eBay for 1/3 of new cost, and it handy to have around for future jobs anyway.

Having said all that, I'm probably in a different situation in that I can take my time with repairs. If you are "down" with an important job it might be more cost effective just to buy another module. Even more cost effective in the end might be to buy another D11 Deckel.
 
The thing is that I still don't know if the problem really is the NPC. Things would be al lot easier if I could obtain the schematics from Grundig. I'm considering giving the guy's from Deckel in Geretsried, Germany a call, when they are back from the holydays. Called them once in the past when I had a the toolchanger kind of in between home and end position and couldn't move it by control anymore. The guy that helped me out knew a thing or two about the older dialog controls and helped me out great.

I don't really like just soldering the IC's out, and messing with the board when I'm not really sure what the problem is. Do you think it's in the NPC?

Everyday when I'm entering the shop, I stongley believe the machine is going to boot up nicely this time... but afterwards I always get the sad look on my face...
 
The thing is that I still don't know if the problem really is the NPC. Things would be al lot easier if I could obtain the schematics from Grundig. I'm considering giving the guy's from Deckel in Geretsried, Germany a call, when they are back from the holydays. Called them once in the past when I had a the toolchanger kind of in between home and end position and couldn't move it by control anymore. The guy that helped me out knew a thing or two about the older dialog controls and helped me out great.
You might also try Michael at FPS in Germany...maybe he had seen this exact problem before. It is frustrating to have no error code or anything.
 
Did some desperate searching on this forum last night and stumbled upon a post from Martin about opening up bridge 18 on the NSP module. Saw it before but didn´t pay to much attention to it.
So I figured out I could give it a try this morning. Also the Saft battery looked good after al those years, measured it at 3,6V.
So after opening the bridge, putting the board back in, booting the machine, taking it out, closing the bridge again, and booting the machine again, it booted up without errors!

Of course all parameters and tool data was lost, luckely I was smart enough to make a copy of the parameters a couple of months ago.

When I took a closer look to the original parameters and the parameters I gathered from transffering them to my PC, I noticed a couple of small differences in them. Maybe someone tuned them during the years.

After transferring the latest parameters back in, it still booted up nicely but displayed a warning that the toolchanger isn´t in "Grundstellung" (German for home or "rest" postion).

Had that happen before, and contacted the guys in Geretsried. So I figured it wouldn't be much of a problem. But after trying I couldn't get it to work.

The normal approach is to put the keyswitch on the NSV on KD, then boot up the machine. After booting up you can hit F1 "Service" and then type DIALOG although it isn't displayed, and hit enter. Then a few option should pop up, one of them is about the toolchanger.
The problem is that when I type DIALOG and hit enter, nothing happens, nomather what I try.
Like I mentiond before, when I did it about 9 months ago it worked fine.

Don, mayby you know whats wrong? Althoug I believe you don't have a toolchanger on you machine, right? So maybe after all you're no familiar with this.
 
Did some desperate searching on this forum last night and stumbled upon a post from Martin about opening up bridge 18 on the NSP module. Saw it before but didn´t pay to much attention to it.
So I figured out I could give it a try this morning. Also the Saft battery looked good after al those years, measured it at 3,6V.
So after opening the bridge, putting the board back in, booting the machine, taking it out, closing the bridge again, and booting the machine again, it booted up without errors!
Wow, that's great news ! So, the open bridge accomplished the "hard reboot" I mentioned without having to desolder, resolder the Saft battery, yes ? On the toolchanger software issue, sorry, but that one is a mystery to me, I've never owned a D11 machine with toolchanger.... Michael at FPS would probably know about that however.
 
Finally figured it out. The proper service menu is not in KD boot up, it's in the normal manual use "Betriebsart". Just one tab to the right from the reference point tab.
So now the toolchanger error is gone and I'm able to move the axis manually and in cnc mode.

But now a new problem came up. The spindle doesn't move anymore. Well it moves something like 10 to 15 degrees everytime I press the button or command it by cnc. Cw or ccw (m3 or m4), the same problem, just a little bit of movement and then it stops, no error or whatsoever displayed...

No red error lights on the Bosch drives.

Maybe it has something to do with the parameters? Both tryed the original deckel parameters and the "tuned" parameters I luckely transferred 9 monts ago. Same result...

Also moving the X-axis to reference position. I recieve a warning that the x-axis limit is reached (It hasn't switched the limit switch yet). This is at exactly the reference position. No problem, it still referenced, and I can manually move it the other way, but his never happend before when everything was fine.

The Y and Z axis don't have this problem and they both still have some travel left when referenced in the direction they moved during referencing. The X-axis doesn't have that travel.

Regarding to the strange things with the spindle and the x-axis, are there somewhere some other (maybe "custom") values I have to set, like offsets or other parameters that got lost when resetting the control, but aren't in the machineparameters?
 
Wow, that's great news ! So, the open bridge accomplished the "hard reboot" I mentioned without having to desolder, resolder the Saft battery, yes ? .

Thats right, but you still have to solder/desolder the bridge, it's not just 2 pins with a small jumper connector like seen often.

Back in the day when they where at it, they could have easely added some more memory chips on my NSP board, because still have about 2/3 of layout empty! Only have about 380kb memory.

Know something about the strange spindle and X-axis problems?
 








 
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