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I don't even know what a coffee tamper is. What I do know is, if a coffee tamper is a necessary item they'll already have a couple. The big question is how would you market it? $150 easy, yeah right. You'd need a network of sales people who already market to hipster coffee houses and will want 50+% commission on sales.

I saw this naive attitude when "inventors" came into my shop for help in getting working prototypes. I call it self-delusion.

Maybe, maybe not. That type of product lends itself to online sales, and the customer already having one doesn't mean anything.

Look at the custom knife makers- you think a single one of their customers actually needs another knife? To cut things? But they still buy another $700 folding knife, because that custom knife is cool.
 
I don't even know what a coffee tamper is. What I do know is, if a coffee tamper is a necessary item they'll already have a couple. The big question is how would you market it? $150 easy, yeah right. You'd need a network of sales people who already market to hipster coffee houses and will want 50+% commission on sales.

I saw this naive attitude when "inventors" came into my shop for help in getting working prototypes. I call it self-delusion.

I'm not going to say you're wrong about a coffee tamper, but your attitude about products is all wrong and it sucks.

I don't think you know the first thing about starting/running a product based shop, but because you used to make parts you like to think you do.

Marketing is not rocket surgery. And I gotta be honest here, I find most good ideas are pretty damn easy to sell without working that hard. Have you ever promoted your product with Youtube videos? Done a press release?

I've never been to the SEMA show, but one year, I had about 30 phone calls from guys AT THE SHOW wanting to buy one of my products that was on a SEMA vehicle. I didn't even know my parts were at SEMA. None of the magazine articles about my parts have ever been instigated by me. Recently I was buying parts for one of my vehicles from a big aftermarket automotive retailer and the sales guy was one of the higher ups that day. He asked what I do and before you know it they're buying two of my product lines in quantity.

Hell, I hosted an event at my shop for a huge non-profit I believe in that does really good things. When they asked me what I wanted the press release to say I asked them not to do one, I didn't do it for that. Turned out people involved in the event were into some of my stuff and they actually helped me grow sales exponentially just by talking me up to others.

The trick is not to have one idea and put everything you got into maximizing that one thing, it's to make 10, 50 or 500 different things. Some will limp along while some are big sellers. You never know until you try.

IMO, the best quality you can have for a product business mindset is to be motivated to prove those wrong that think your products are going to fail.

The worst approach possible would be the "That idea will never work because of all these reasons...."
 
The trick is not to have one idea and put everything you got into maximizing that one thing, it's to make 10, 50 or 500 different things. Some will limp along while some are big sellers. You never know until you try.

I'm not an expert in the business/product development world myself, but I have seen historical examples that prove this very point (late 19th/early 20th century). And we are talking about a time where the markets weren't nearly as saturated as they are today, so they had a competitive advantage of being the first/only ones to have said product.

Ask your dad or grandpa about Millers Falls Tools and then about Chauncey Wing and Sons. Likelihood is they will still have a Millers Falls plane or screwdriver kicking around somewhere, while they will go "Who the f is Chauncey Wing?"

Both started around the same time in the same geographic area, yet one company became a household name, while the other faded off into obscurity.

Millers Falls Tools had something like 54 different kinds of just bit braces in their catalog at one point in time - not to mention all the other tools, planes, screwdrivers, hacksaw blades, they will sell you the frames too, and an electric drill, and the drill bits to go with it, etc etc. And they started by making and selling a machine for wringing out your wash (back in the days before we had all this fancy indoor plumbing). Got out of that while they still had their shirts and diversified the products they manufactured.

Chauncey Wing (or his son's, can't remember who filed the patent), invented a nifty little tool for attaching pre printed address labels to envelopes. Made a good little business around it for a few years, but since they didn't make (and obviously didn't want to or couldn't make) anything else, and when demand for their mailing label tool dropped off, they just closed the factory. Through luck and preservation efforts in the last few years, the building still stands, with all the machinery still inside, still set up to make these things, over 100 years later. Such is the story with a lot of manufacturers that failed to innovate and diversify their product lines, except history wasn't as kind to their buildings or machinery. I wouldn't count on anyone making a museum or preserving the facility of my failed business.
IMO, the best quality you can have for a product business mindset is to be motivated to prove those wrong that think your products are going to fail.

The worst approach possible would be the "That idea will never work because of all these reasons...."
Again, I am no business expert, but being stubborn as a mule and reasonably confident are two qualities I can see helping in that regard.
 
Wow. There has been fantastic discussion here about how all of this would work out and what one would have to think about in terms of making it on their own. I do have an idea for a product (precision coffee tamper with some nice looking wood. Find the right hipster coffee shop and you can get $150 a pop easy) and fortunately that doesn’t require an enormous amount of dedication and labor into creating. So that lends this kind of product to being able to be done on my off time realistically. I’ll probably stick to my day job and work at this side project for the time being until things hopefully take off and coupled with good timing, would make a relatively easier transition to running my own shop with my own products. If it doesn’t work out then I’ll go to job shopping. Thanks for all of the insight I got to see in this thread!
No way are you getting $150 for a tamper unless it has a tactical design while being made from medical grade stainless steel, and military grade aluminum billet.
 
Garwood, I do have experience selling my own products, probably far more than you.

Back when I was in my late twenties I left a relatively high paying engineering job to start a product based business with niche market items (anything is possible when you're young with no family financial responsibilities). That business supported 4 of us, wife and two kids (born after the business was started). We had a reasonable middle class lifestyle. The business ran out of my owned shop building which was too small for the business to expand. I decided to let the business die, sell off the equipment and move onto machining/engineering which would bring in more dollars per square foot of shop space. As a last resort I listed the business for sale and found a buyer who qualified for an SBA loan. For a quick sale I got $90k (which totally amazed me). And then onto the machining busine$$.

I've been interested in your postings because you always seemed so sure about what you were doing. You talked about buying old CNC machines for pennies on the dollar as if anyone who didn't was stupid. I went in the opposite direction, bought new ( buy a new machine and make parts tomorrow, buy old and maybe make parts in a month or two, if at all).

Recently you talked about the great cash cow making repair parts for heavy machinery because the parts weren't available due to supply chain issues. I was critical about that. Now you talk about SEMA (auto parts). The fact is, anybody with more than two nickels to rub together wouldn't go anywhere near those markets, I know my liability insurance wouldn't cover my ass. I'm not willing to take the financial risks you apparently are.

A couple years ago I came up with a neat little accessory for a Dremel tool. Verifying thru my insurance carrier, it turned out the insurance per unit sold would be higher than my anticipated selling price per unit. That's just the sad way things are in our litigious society.

In short, I'd say most of your "make your own product" stuff is nonsense.
Cool. You're welcome to come by the shop anytime to help you grasp this nonsense.

I don't understand how your distaste for litigation has anything to do with my business choices. That's your choice. Your perceived risk, not mine.

I have never, ever said anyone who didn't buy used CNC's is stupid. That would be a stupid statement to make. However, I have stated repeatedly that buying used Haas equipment at market value is a stupid thing to do compared to buying premium used machine tools. There's a lot of dumb perceptions out there. There are lots of high quality used machines available for very reasonable prices if you look.

Now you're saying the entire aftermarket automotive parts industry is full of fools putting their necks out too far? OK.
 
In short, I'd say most of your "make your own product" stuff is nonsense.

Just out of curiosity, how do you explain all the small shops across the country making their own products? We don't exist, or we're all just flirting with lawsuit induced bankruptcy?

Just because your experience wasn't good doesn't mean someone else can't make a go of it.
 
Cool. You're welcome to come by the shop anytime to help you grasp this nonsense.

I don't understand how your distaste for litigation has anything to do with my business choices. That's your choice. Your perceived risk, not mine.

I have never, ever said anyone who didn't buy used CNC's is stupid. That would be a stupid statement to make. However, I have stated repeatedly that buying used Haas equipment at market value is a stupid thing to do compared to buying premium used machine tools. There's a lot of dumb perceptions out there. There are lots of high quality used machines available for very reasonable prices if you look.

Now you're saying the entire aftermarket automotive parts industry is full of fools putting their necks out too far? OK.
Are all your products aftermarket automotive?
 
My experience was good. As I said, my owned shop building was too small to expand the business. And since I already owned a shop space close to home I wasn't interested in renting a bigger space which wasn't so conveniently located near our home.

Yeah, there're shops all across the country making their own products. Most are involved in non-risky products. The coffee tamper product would fit in the non-risky category. My product based business was also non-risky and went through 3 owners until it finally shut down for good several years ago. None of the owners ever should have been in business for themselves, they didn't seem to have any clues or common sense about running a business.

My criticism of "make your products" was directed at Garwood after he suggested I knew nothing about getting products to market. Garwood is either BS'ing or is flirting with lawsuit induced bankruptcy by getting involved in risky fields (heavy machinery replacement parts and after-market auto). I asked him previously how he insured himself/business with no response. Some people seem to think an LLC protects them, which is total nonsense. Of course, if you don't have substantial assets that's the best protection against lawsuits.

You nailed it. I'm making the devil's parts for the litigious masses.

I stand by my statements that your advice relative to products is bad.
 
When I sold someone a production (as opposed to hobby) machine ,I used to drop in on them about six months after the sale ,to see what they were doing with it......sometimes I d get an earfull,but not often.......When I worked for Palms Tractor yard,they were a lot more blatant selling stuff that was about to blow up,and buyers often would have a whinge about a converter or final drives or summat,but never seemed really p***d,not homicidally so.
 
Wow. There has been fantastic discussion here about how all of this would work out and what one would have to think about in terms of making it on their own. I do have an idea for a product (precision coffee tamper with some nice looking wood. Find the right hipster coffee shop and you can get $150 a pop easy) and fortunately that doesn’t require an enormous amount of dedication and labor into creating....
There was a guy in the South Bend forum, CoonCatBob who showcased his espresso tampers made on a SB. Not for retail, IIRC for his own use.

This is going back maybe 12 years ago on PM.
 
You have experience with this? Running a job shop and developing/manufacturing/marketing/selling/supporting products simultaneously?

My advice is pick one or the other. Do both and neither endeavor will amount to its potential.

Don't quit your day job.
Just like that Huh? Develop a product and start selling it. Maybe somebody did it. Maybe even 2, but for every guy that has tried for decades to get a product he can sell, there are 1000s that went under before they made a dime.

Go do a man's work as a job shop and if on weekends and after school you want to tinker around dive on. Somehow it seems you have been conned into thinking you cannot make money with a job shop. Nothing could be further from the truth. ,,,, And for starts get a Bridgport and a lathe and maybe a TIG machine and put an ad in Craiglist and do repair work. Then as time goes by (And money comes in) go after bigger and bigger jobs.

Just the point being that anybody that thinks they are going to star out the soze of Suburban Tool has to be on drugs. Start small and don't over extend. --- YOu know all those very low hour machines at the auctions come from somewhere, and it's not from the shops that have been in business for years and years.
 
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....Go do a man's work as a job shop and if on weekends and after school you want to tinker around dive on. Somehow it seems you have been conned into thinking you cannot make money with a job shop.
A man's work? Kinda harsh, and that's certainly not the way I understood Garwood's post. There are those that prefer making other people's stuff and those that prefer making their own.
Just the point being that anybody that thinks they are going to star out the soze of Suburban Tool has to be on drugs. Start small and don't over extend.

Agreed, no matter which the OP chooses.
 
Garwood, I do have experience selling my own products, probably far more than you.

Back when I was in my late twenties I left a relatively high paying engineering job to start a product based business with niche market items (anything is possible when you're young with no family financial responsibilities). That business supported 4 of us, wife and two kids (born after the business was started). We had a reasonable middle class lifestyle. The business ran out of my owned shop building which was too small for the business to expand. I decided to let the business die, sell off the equipment and move onto machining/engineering which would bring in more dollars per square foot of shop space. As a last resort I listed the business for sale and found a buyer who qualified for an SBA loan. For a quick sale I got $90k (which totally amazed me). And then onto the machining busine$$.

I've been interested in your postings because you always seemed so sure about what you were doing. You talked about buying old CNC machines for pennies on the dollar as if anyone who didn't was stupid. I went in the opposite direction, bought new ( buy a new machine and make parts tomorrow, buy old and maybe make parts in a month or two, if at all).

Recently you talked about the great cash cow making repair parts for heavy machinery because the parts weren't available due to supply chain issues. I was critical about that. Now you talk about SEMA (auto parts). The fact is, anybody with more than two nickels to rub together wouldn't go anywhere near those markets, I know my liability insurance wouldn't cover my ass. I'm not willing to take the financial risks you apparently are.

A couple years ago I came up with a neat little accessory for a Dremel tool. Verifying thru my insurance carrier, it turned out the insurance per unit sold would be higher than my anticipated selling price per unit. That's just the sad way things are in our litigious society.

In short, I'd say most of your "make your own product" stuff is nonsense.
How true, how true. - Everybody who thinks they are going to "invent" something and make a million dollars is kidding themselves.

The most profit per item I ever made was back in the early 80s. I had a production welding shop making A-frames for Myers Snow Plow. - I also did pretty well welding heat exchanges for Dornback Furnace. ,,, Bottom line I made a damn good living for over 40 years and never made and sold my own product until after I retired. Now, If I sell them great. If not,,, who cares? It's more of a hobby then a business to me now. (Just keep working because I was at it so long I don't know not to)

I do see a very sucessful company called "Rack-a-Tiers" who make a simular product line to some of the stuff I make and sell,,,,,I do not push the marketing (because I don't want to end up working 60+ hours a week again but it tool Rack-a-Tiers over 20 years to get "fully assembled" and I'm sure to this day the brains there think 40 hours a week is a part time job.

Get woke, go broke? Try to start a business from the ground up on a product you "invented" and you will have a whole new meaning of going broke. - You got a better chance of hitting the lottery.
 
How true, how true. - Everybody who thinks they are going to "invent" something and make a million dollars is kidding themselves.
........
Try to start a business from the ground up on a product you "invented" and you will have a whole new meaning of going broke. - You got a better chance of hitting the lottery.
It's not that rare, those frames you welded were someone else's product. And that poor inventor likely earned more money for less time then you did to boot (granted he would have more invested on the front end, but still...).

Making your own products as a machinist is almost cheating, since you naturally can design for manufacture.

The world needs job shops and product shops. Some people are better at one than the other, get in where you fit in.
 
The world needs job shops and product shops. Some people are better at one than the other, get in where you fit in.

Yes.

But we do have a disconnect on PM about making your own products.

I think I have Garwoods attitude about it (without knowing him or his products):

Make a bunch of stuff you know something about, test the market, keep the good, leave the bad, refine, listen to customers, etc.

Some people seem to think you need a designer, an engineer, a marketing expert, an insurance expert, etc. before you even get started with a product....you don't. Add that stuff as necessary.

I grew to 3 people on my products alone, with crappy (from a traditional view) marketing. Many of my ebay and site pics are of my early prototypes, and they still sell.

I have 8 people now, and my products are a small fraction of my sales...but I have a ton in mind for if things slow down. I also make prototypes for fun/to keep my brain active.

I went where the business led and now we're doing some large scale fab projects, my big production job left but we do some production as well.
 
Everybody who thinks they are going to "invent" something and make a million dollars is kidding themselves.

Get woke, go broke? Try to start a business from the ground up on a product you "invented" and you will have a whole new meaning of going broke. - You got a better chance of hitting the lottery.
It could be that I am be smarter, luckier and more attractive than every single other person here, but unless you're using "invent" in some sort of nonstandard way, I did that. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here either. A million dollars isn't what it used to be.
 
It could be that I am be smarter, luckier and more attractive than every single other person here, but unless you're using "invent" in some sort of nonstandard way, I did that. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here either. A million dollars isn't what it used to be.
Having met you, I'll agree to smarter and luckier, but more attractive is a stretch.....


Yes.

But we do have a disconnect on PM about making your own products.

I think I have Garwoods attitude about it (without knowing him or his products):

Jamscal, what do you mean by disconnect? I think we're on the same page, just curious which way you thought the disconnect was.
 
Having met you, I'll agree to smarter and luckier, but more attractive is a stretch.....


Coma - don't listen to that putz!
Guys like us, we need to stick together....
I've been spreading a similar rumor for maybe 30 yrs by now.
Not getting a whole lot of traction....
Lots of jealousy out there....


--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 








 
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