DRO for Deckel FP1

[AlfaGTA]

Sure this has nothing to bear on this discussion...but i see two major areas to consider in the purchase of any machine or accessory.

First off is it capable of doing the job. Will it provide the necessary accuracy, ease of use and features needed for the range of work it is intended to support....

Second and in my book easily as important....
What is the user interface like...Noe some would assume that i am referring to the readout and how you enter data and the like, and yes this enters into this , but for me it goes much further!
I am interested in the package...How is the product, in this case a DRO housed....how are the scales mounted and enclosed...can you buy spare parts like seals for the reader heads etc.

Not a mystery i guess that i am a "solid" advocate and end user of the Heidenhain products...
My choice is based on the reputation of their products, and equally the feel, fit and finish of the entire package.....

I am dead set against any keyboard interface that uses "membrane" style keys.....I hate, hate, hate, hate that style if user interface.....Gotta have real hard , stand proud buttons that your fingers
can feel....

Further The HH DRO's have a real die cast aluminum housing for the display...Not folded sheet metal or injection molded crap.....

Also to note, the HH DRO have select able axis depth compensation ...What that means is if you select the "Y" axis for your length comp, then your "X" and "Z" become the positioning moves, and things like
scaling and bolt circles will be orientated for the horizontal axis....a nice feature for any mill having both a horizontal and vertical axis....
Not sure if this is a feature for other DRO's.....

Initial cost is certainly a factor....But becomes less os if considered over the potential life span of the machine....Don't want to buy cheap only to hate using it every day....

As to the future , perhaps one day getting an FP2.....might consider buying the scales longer than needed for your current FP1 so that the DRO could be transferred should an FP2 come available.
Personally i would not go this route, but its an option you should consider....
Cheers Ross

 

[ballen]

Hi Alan,

I think K+C might be the SINO distributer in Germany, maybe you bought your SINO from them.

I bought the Sino system for my lathe from PeWeTools Limited (Peter Wendlandt) who is an authorized Sino Distributor for Germany. The 3-axis display plus two 1-micron resolution glass scales (one standard KA-300, one very small KA-200, 16 x 16mm for the cross slide) was 833 Euros. The scales came with calibration plots and other documentation establishing that they were not gray-market goods.

I wanted to avoid buying "seconds", meaning scales that failed their accuracy or resolution tests at the factory and then ended up in the hands of unscrupulous dealers.

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: photos of my lathe DRO installation

 

[Luke Rickert]

I am dead set against any keyboard interface that uses "membrane" style keys.....I hate, hate, hate, hate that style if user interface.....Gotta have real hard , stand proud buttons that your fingers
can feel....

I have to say the Newall DP700 display buttons aren't so bad, in theory I agree that real keys are better but I wouldn't decided just based on that as otherwise the system is really very well done and for a mill makes perfect sense. If I get another DRO for the lathe it will be Heidenhain as Newall doesn't have the true resolution for the cross-slide.

Luke

 

[Peter from Holland]

Ross

I do not share your addoration of HH
HH has had so many systems that are or are not interchangable
On older types If you need a scale its a real search for which will work or will not work on your readout Although all have the 9pin connectors

If you work with a manual milling machine all day it can be a good deal perhaps because of its durability
But please get a CNC machine then

And WHO wants a 1 micron scale on a manual milling machine ???? Not me. 0.01mm is difficult enough
Perhaps a 1 Mikron scale has its place on a newly rebuild Schaublin 135 or Hardinge HLV BUt not on any manual milling machine IMHO

Peter

 

[traditional-tools]

And WHO wants a 1 micron scale on a manual milling machine ???? Not me. 0.01mm is difficult enough
Perhaps a 1 Mikron scale has its place on a newly rebuild Schaublin 135 or Hardinge HLV BUt not on any manual milling machine IMHO

This is exactly why you can change the resolution in the firmware/software. You can set the display to 5 microns even if you're using 1 micron scales and the DRO will round down to less decimals. I honestly don't see your point, given this setting. I don't think it could hurt to have scales of a higher resolution.

I have never heard of a machinist that wouldn't take more resolution, given the opportunity, and can see where it would come in handy.

 

[Danny VanVoorn]

I'm a little late to the party and only have a read out on one of my many machines by design, that one was on it when I brought it home. If I was in the market for a unit I would probably choose a Heidenhain unit, reason being a quality point. I remember all the NC machines with Heidenhain controllers from my days in the Aerospace shop and know they were well liked by everyone using them. Thinking about this now brings up another point, I don't know of any other read out maker that made an NC control? We had about every major makers of NC controls but there weren't any made by Sony, Acurite, Mitutoyo, Newall, Sino, etc.. Not that that is really an important point but it does speak volumes about the seriousness of Heidenhains place in the game.
I do think it should be noted that all the things that make the FP1 such a great milling system make it a pain to put a digital read out on. In Deckels defense; the FP1 came out way before readouts were a gleam in anybodys eye that wasn't addressed until the final generation models. To expand a little on this; it's more about doing a job that looks like it was done by a professional compared to a hack. X axis is probably the worse scale to add, there isn't ant extra room under the table so real a small scale is about the only thing that will fit (think one maker calls theirs "slim scales"). If it sticks out it may get damaged changing tables so it really needs to be placed behind the mounting surface. Of coarse it can be installed on the Joe block bar but then it's right where all the mess is and not protected from a slip of a wrench or similar. I look forward to seeing the finished installation in case I decide to add one on mine.
Dan

 

[traditional-tools]

I do think it should be noted that all the things that make the FP1 such a great milling system make it a pain to put a digital read out on. In Deckels defense; the FP1 came out way before readouts were a gleam in anybodys eye that wasn't addressed until the final generation models. To expand a little on this; it's more about doing a job that looks like it was done by a professional compared to a hack. X axis is probably the worse scale to add, there isn't ant extra room under the table so real a small scale is about the only thing that will fit (think one maker calls theirs "slim scales"). If it sticks out it may get damaged changing tables so it really needs to be placed behind the mounting surface. Of coarse it can be installed on the Joe block bar but then it's right where all the mess is and not protected from a slip of a wrench or similar. I look forward to seeing the finished installation in case I decide to add one on mine.
Dan

Dan,

In regard to X axis, I completely agree with you. I've talked about this in the past with AlanH (wrench) when he was at my house. He mentioned specifically that even the FP2 is limited where he has his scale mounted, which is on the bottom of the vertical table mount. The FP1 is smaller and there's not really any area to mount it there, also. I will be honest, I haven't actually decided how to handle it. Easson does make the slimline scales, but I'm not getting them. I don't think the vendor I am buying from can get them, but I'll ask. I know that DRO Pros does sell the slimline scales. Those are the GS30/GS31 (5micron/1micron). Even so, I don't think Singer sells the slimline scales. But Singer looks to provide some custom mounting hardware, this is something I need to solve for myself.

In regard to the X axis, I have thought about 2 different ways. (hey, a lathe pun! <groan>)

One is the mount the scale on the bottom of the vertical table, and try to get it flush with the table. Then put the reader on a mount attached to the top of the knee screw cover, there's a cast section on top, kind of angled forward.

The other way would be to make a mounting bracket to hold the scale and attach it to the top of the knee screw cover area, and mount the reader to the vertical table.

Alternatively would be to mount the X scale on the top of the vertical table mount, using the tray area. The problem I have with that is that I tend to use that area for fixtures and vises, getting close to the Z ways. That wouldn't be good if bellows were added also, but at the price of them, I may have to attempt to make make my own if I want it.

Peter,

I was pondering about the accuracy of having 1 micron scales on my antiquated mill, and one of the things that keeps crossing my mind is that I do use a dial test indicator quite often on it to calibrate my work/fixtures in, and don't think it's uncommon for machinists to use dial indicators and test dial indicators that are accurate to a tenth. I am guilty of using one myself.

I'm not sure why I wouldn't want the same accuracy with a DRO, after all it does replace some measuring and having it as accurate as possible seems to make sense. As I mentioned, you can change the display to accommodate.

However, I will add that I often use a dial test indicator which is accurate to .0005, and find it plenty accurate also, so I'm sure that either one would work fine.

I know a lot of people wouldn't care to have a mill like my lever model FP1 with MK4, but I use it a lot and I think I would be more useful with DRO. Some things take me a while to mark out, like bolt hole patterns, and doing radiuses...the DRO would help a lot in that regard. Up until now I've just always worked both sides of the backlash as best I can to eliminate as much or all if I can. The DRO would also assist that.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Let me repeat myself
STAY AWAY FROM MIKRONS ON A MANUAL MILLING MACHINE
You need to be a very skilled machinist with a more as perfect machine to hold 0.01mm repeatingly
If you want to use your milling machine as a measuring machine up to 1 mikron be my guest. I will hold my breath

Peter

 

[Luke Rickert]

The ease of mounting is a big benefit of the Newall design. It made installation on my Schaublin mill more or less straightforward, mounting a traditional scales on that machine without removing the stops would be a real pain in the rear given the lack of flat surfaces.

L

 

[Milacron]

DISCLAIMER: His taste of machinery is not necessarily aligned with mine.

No, but that is precisely the class of machine the DRO is meant for.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Danny:
To answer the non pertinent question...In addition to Heidenhain,Fagor also made DRO's and CNC controls....I agree that the Heidenhain controls are well received by the people on the shop floor...which
to me speaks volumes.

As to mounting the scale on the "X" axis....Don't know about the FP1...But on my first gen FP2, i milled a pocket to nest the scale into the bottom of the "X" slide so the scale was low in height.

Also, i offset the scale away from the operators side so that when moving the table in the X plus direction the scale was not getting in the way of the "Z" handwheel as it moved across....
Setting in the scale allows the trip stops to still function ...had to make extended clamp bolts so they were above the scale....
Of course its helpful having a machine (FP4NC) large enough to allow machining of the FP2's slide....

Peter:
I will defer to your wider experience and exposure regarding Heidenhain products....I agree that they have a wide range of different products (somewhat because they have been doing this longer than anyone)
But in my limited experience , i have always been able ,using their ample on line documentation, been able to determine which scale and DRO box were comparable, what cables were required etc....Personally don't find this to be a problem, and for me certainly its not a deal breaker!

I do agree on the accuracy thing regarding use on a manual milling machine....Attempting to hold and position closer than .0005" on that machine will make you nuts...The only manual machines that can routinely and easily
position tn the "tenths" range in Deckel land are the "Aktive" machines.....And that really is cheating....
Cheers Ross

 

[Milacron]

I do agree on the accuracy thing regarding use on a manual milling machine....Attempting to hold and position closer than .0005" on that machine will make you nuts...The only manual machines that can routinely and easily
position tn the "tenths" range in Deckel land are the "Aktive" machines.....And that really is cheating....

FWIW, the photo where I show on the Positip axis positions out to 5 digits in inches was one of the first photos I took when the (used) DRO was still on default settings. I have since changed it to 4 digits as I realized going out 5 digits was ridiculous for a manual mill. Even going out 4 digits is questionable, but I figure what the heck, might as well.

 

[traditional-tools]

No, but that is precisely the class of machine the DRO is meant for.

And the same scales Singer is using in Germany of all places.

FWIW, the photo where I show on the Positip axis positions out to 5 digits in inches was one of the first photos I took when the (used) DRO was still on default settings. I have since changed it to 4 digits as I realized going out 5 digits was ridiculous for a manual mill. Even going out 4 digits is questionable, but I figure what the heck, might as well.

That makes sense, it's ok for the HH crowd to set their readout for less decimals but others shouldn't do that. What was Deckel thinking in putting 1 micron resolution DROs on their machines ?

 

[rklopp]

What was Deckel thinking in putting 1 micron resolution DROs on their machines ?

They were thinking of the times you'd use your mill as a lathe, with the work in the spindle and the tool on the table, and you need 2X better resolution on the radius to give 1X resolution on the diameter!

 

[AlfaGTA]

What was Deckel thinking in putting 1 micron resolution DROs on their machines ?

Ah...That DRO that Milacron refers to, Positip, did not come on that machine, or any other Deckel for that matter...he added it because the original TNC 113 was missing....
And to the point, not a problem to turn down the resolution or accuracy of the display on the DRO...Think Peter's point is that it might be a waste of money to spend
more to get the higher resolution scales for a manual milling machine...that's all....
If its worth the extra cost to have the greater accuracy in your pocket, don't see a problem....I would be interested in your actual use for the higher settings once it is installed and running.
Cheers Ross

 

[Charles_nl]

Hi Alan,




Yes, absolutely. But there are others who will put lipstick on a pig and sell that to the unwary. Caveat Emptor.



Bruce

Actually I only know of a US artist guy Jeff somename that painted pigs and could sell them to the very wary?

 

[traditional-tools]

Think Peter's point is that it might be a waste of money to spend more to get the higher resolution scales for a manual milling machine...that's all....

$20 per scale ?

If its worth the extra cost to have the greater accuracy in your pocket, don't see a problem....I would be interested in your actual use for the higher settings once it is installed and running.

Has nothing to do with need. I stated in the top of this thread I work to .001" most all the time.

However, that doesn't stop me or others from using dial test indicators that are accurate to 1 tenth. I also don't need the resolution, but I can see cases where I can.

What if I decide to take these scales and put them on my lathe ? Or another lathe for that mater ? Or another mill ?

Are you saying that you have never used a test dial indicator that is accurate to a tenth on your Deckel mills ?

 

[ballen]

Hi Ross,

On my first gen FP2, i milled a pocket to nest the scale into the bottom of the "X" slide so the scale was low in height.

Photos please, worth 1000 words and all of that

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[AlfaGTA]

I use tenth indicators when setting up grinding work (cylindrical) or in testing gauges etc....
Routinely work to tenths when using the CNC's but that is way different...there the MPG has a setting to nudge at a tenth at a time, and you can just call the position and it goes there and stops exact no backlash to contend with........Do some tenth indicating on the mill (CNC) when jig boring....
Almost never on the manual machine...there my almost always choice is a .0005" Interapid test indicator....Going finer is just a waste of time, way too tedious , and the machine won't give those results (FP2 or FP3 in good condition)

Hell...you can't even indicate to a tenth (Dial up) by using the Deckel spindle, there is more clearance in the needle rollers than that....
I use tenths indicators when testing the flatness of work like scraping off qualified surface plate etc.....

Routinely bore holes in engine main bearing housings (Cosworth DFV's) where the allowed size tolerance must be held within .0003" on the diameter....and i set the boring bar true to the original housing bore
with a .0005" test indicator....Why...because running a tenths indicator on a previously used bore reads with so much mechanical noise (vibration) it becomes impossible to get a real picture of the
bore position.....Here, less is more.

Your work may vary......Me i have the HH boxes on the manual mills here all set to read at .0005" and have been so since i installed the DRO's....
At $ 20.00 per scale...i would give that it does not matter much. Its less than i would have guessed...So maybe this is a case of a tempest in a tea pot....

Cheers Ross

 

[Milacron]

And the same scales Singer is using in Germany of all places.

In looking over the rebuilt machines they have for sale I don't see any evidence of DROPros displays...but are you saying they may be using DROPro scales that are comparable with the Heindenhain DRO's ?