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DWO/ TCPC upgrade on 4th Axis Haas VF2 and VF4SS

MunsterCanada

Plastic
Joined
Oct 3, 2023
We are a production shop that uses 4th axis alot. Currently using the 4th axis's programed as indexers with many many offsets.

Looking to upgrade our machines to have DWO to just make life alot easier for ourselves programming/ setup etc

What have peoples experience been with making the change over/ things to ask/ horror stories to avoid?

Programing side we use Fusion 360, which I do have some experience using in 5th Axis machines in other shops. Machines are 2018 VF4SS with HRT210 and 2021 VF2 with HRT210SS (with NGC of course)
I understand we need some settings enabled/ measured (MZRP I think Haas calls it).

Just looking for peoples experience with making the change over and how it went for them. There seems tobe a lot online with 5th axis with DWO but next to nothing with 4th axis.
 
So from the perspective of having well made parts its neither here nor there. Indexing with multiple offsets has and does work well from the practical side of things.

But on the programing (fusion360) and set up side of things its alot of time invested and machine time down with trying to make multiple offsets work. And you also need to have a reasonable amount of machining knowledge to make it work in a safe manner.

Our production runs are 2 part assembly's of which we make 3 assembly's at a time. The parts or not super tight tolerance (we are talking -+.0025 locational tolerance) But part geometry is quite complex. So a 4th or 5th axis is the only reasonable way to make things in a quick manner.

Some of these parts we are hitting at 5 or 6 different sides (3 parts on a single jig offset from center on a 4th). Then times that by 3 parts. We are kinda talking 100+ toolpaths posting at once with 5 or 6 different setups within fusion360. (I could do multiple posts and copy paste what I want together. But coming back to machine safety, knowledge transfer its not a viable way forward for us)

The workflow within fusion360 for 4th and 5th axis really calls for having DWO on the Haas machines. You can make it work without (and we have) but going forward to simplify the programing and setup process we really need this workflow. (I think)
 
Yes, I know all about programming for a 4th axis rotary. Have done it for well over a decade. Along with 3+2 rotary work.

You didn't mention a 5 axis setup anywhere in your OP, so that's why I was asking about why you needed DWO/TCPC for a 4 axis setup.
 
Yes, I know all about programming for a 4th axis rotary. Have done it for well over a decade. Along with 3+2 rotary work.

You didn't mention a 5 axis setup anywhere in your OP, so that's why I was asking about why you needed DWO/TCPC for a 4 axis setup.
Well part of my job is also looking forward in the years to come. So a 5th axis could be on the cards at some point. If we already have a reliable process that could transfer over then that would also be ideal if needed.

Main drives for this is process reliability (programming to setup to machining) and lowering the barrier of entry to training for the guys that work under me.

Also scalability from rapid prototyping to production to multiplying production with ease.

I understand there is alot of ways to skin a cat. And that we dont need to have DWO/TCPC. But its more a nice to have for the process in our dept.
 
You mention both 4 and 5 axis operations, but it sounds like you are just indexing.
Can you just program a single WCS at center of rotation and then (re)probe at each index to compensate for misalignment?
 
How does that help you? Where to put your zero point is a simple matter of choice.
B/c if you're doing multiple parts especially second op work you can just probe and go. Otherwise if the part isn't in the exact same spot each time you'd have to shift the part in CAM and re post the program for each part.
 
I do multiple part setups on the fourth. I just set the WCS to the center of rotation at the end of the fixture and it's all good, no probing needed. The trick is getting that center of rotation exact; then you don't need to shift anything.
 
I do multiple part setups on the fourth. I just set the WCS to the center of rotation at the end of the fixture and it's all good, no probing needed. The trick is getting that center of rotation exact; then you don't need to shift anything.
i'm not denying that, lol. literally said that the purpose of it is so you dont HAVE to program off the center of rotation. well aware that you can do that, and i've done so many many times. but it can be a bit of a pain to always do that, sometimes you just need to throw something quick on a vise/fixture, probe it and go.
 
Yeah but they have a 4 axis rotary.
are you high? obviously they have a 4 axis rotary, thats the whole point i'm trying to make! if you have DWO/TCPC, you set the center of rotation in the setting 255/256/257, then you can probe the stock anywhere on the rotary table in relation to the center, and control figures out where your material is.
if you dont do that, you have to define where exactly your center of rotation is in CAM, and if you're slightly off, you're fucked. this is basic stuff, please tell me you know this
 
but it can be a bit of a pain to always do that, sometimes you just need to throw something quick on a vise/fixture, probe it and go.
Maybe more transparency needed from OP but he starts by saying he's in a production shop and is looking at jobs that maybe go from rapid prototype to long production or whatever.

I see absolutely no value in a quick and dirty setup if this is the case. If you're running a shitload of parts just make sure your setup is on center of rotation every time and program accordingly.

Plus we're talking about DWO on a Haas, which is reason enough for me to double-down on saying do it the right way the first time and be done with it.
 
are you high? obviously they have a 4 axis rotary, thats the whole point i'm trying to make! if you have DWO/TCPC, you set the center of rotation in the setting 255/256/257, then you can probe the stock anywhere on the rotary table in relation to the center, and control figures out where your material is.
if you dont do that, you have to define where exactly your center of rotation is in CAM, and if you're slightly off, you're fucked. this is basic stuff, please tell me you know this
I know that part, I guess I was just used to using a 3 jaw for 99% of my 4 axis work and a self centering vise for the other bits and locating them on center.
I wasn't thinking about using a platter that can hold multiple vises and whatnot where your part is out in space.
I can see that now. :wall:
 
Maybe more transparency needed from OP but he starts by saying he's in a production shop and is looking at jobs that maybe go from rapid prototype to long production or whatever.

I see absolutely no value in a quick and dirty setup if this is the case. If you're running a shitload of parts just make sure your setup is on center of rotation every time and program accordingly.

Plus we're talking about DWO on a Haas, which is reason enough for me to double-down on saying do it the right way the first time and be done with it.
this has nothing to do with right or wrong. neither way is 'right' or 'wrong'. if you dont have DWO/TCPC, you HAVE to model everything perfectly in CAD/CAM when programming, and it has to PERFECTLY represent whats actually in the machine. having DWO/TCPC lets you program any part without having to do any of that, just place your work offset anywhere on the stock you're machining. regardless of how you look at it, having it is much better than not. can you do without it? absolutely! but its akin to walking to work instead of driving your car. and yes i'm well aware of the fact that its a haas, still makes it easier and faster to program different things.
 
I know that part, I guess I was just used to using a 3 jaw for 99% of my 4 axis work and a self centering vise for the other bits and locating them on center.
I wasn't thinking about using a platter that can hold multiple vises and whatnot where your part is out in space.
I can see that now. :wall:
all good brotha, lol
 








 
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