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Earth Leakage issues

A leakage current clampmeter, megaohmmeter (in case it is the motor), and RCD tester are likely more useful at this stage.

Again, do we know that it is a suitable type of RCD (not type AC), and protecting the minimum legally possible (not 2/3 of the house adding to the leakage current)?
 
OK so this morning I spoke to the company who supplied the motor and VFD's for the lathe, I was asking them simply for the amp range for the main 3hp motor, which incidentally is 2-10A depending on the speed required. While getting this info I mentioned I needed the info to spec out a choke device as was having issues with tripping RCD's, the supplier asked about my set up and I mentioned the Schaffner in line filters and he immediately said this was the problem. They are industrial grade units which is fine but as they have a capacitor bridging to earth they do give out a fair amount of leakage, plus I'm running two. He suggested I take the unit apart and simply snip out the culprit capacitor.
With the cover off it was obvious the unit was not going to come apart easily and the electronics were under the main toroid so decided to strip the whole thing out with a dremmel! It was the only whey honest...

Once the shell was empty I used the big circular ring and wound my own toroid re-soldering to the original connectors at each end of the case and hot gluing into the case again so the resulting item looks the same as the original and can still be rail mounted in the electronics bay of the lathe. Going to do the same to the second unit and re-instal both and see what happens.

Will post pics once the test is done to see if it cures the issue.

marc
 
It is unlikely that snipping the capacitors will do anything but ruin a couple of expensive filters.

The leakage is small, and we know the filters are not the problem, since they are in the circuit before the motor is switched on, and do not trip the RCD then!

If that cured the problem, then there is ANOTHER problem existing, which is still not cured.
 
It is unlikely that snipping the capacitors will do anything but ruin a couple of expensive filters.

The leakage is small, and we know the filters are not the problem, since they are in the circuit before the motor is switched on, and do not trip the RCD then!

If that cured the problem, then there is ANOTHER problem existing, which is still not cured.

Ermm.. Scherter's caps don't exactly "leak" anyway. The VFD tech was dodging the issue.

They intentionally divert TRUANT energy when they are MEANT to do.

Only.

And a skosh more precisely than a Corcom. It's what the Swiss DO.

That's what we PAY their "non trivial" price FOR.
 
It is unlikely that snipping the capacitors will do anything but ruin a couple of expensive filters.

The leakage is small, and we know the filters are not the problem, since they are in the circuit before the motor is switched on, and do not trip the RCD then!

If that cured the problem, then there is ANOTHER problem existing, which is still not cured.

Ahtough, in a similar drive, the just powering the drive does NOT trip the GFI. The motor must be commanded to run for the trip to happen. So the filters *could* be the problem.
Easy test is to just bypass them entirely. It's all slip-on crimp connectors, easy test. I would not dismantle the filters either.

What you really are meaning to say is: "how come the main spindle motor runs without tripping the GFI, but the feed motor drive, does?"
Nobody has come up with a theory why THIS is happening.
 
Just few thoughts, 100m cable run is a long, Meg it. Another thought would be to use a wheat stone bridge may not be applicable, just spit balling.
 
Well whatever the filters did they wont do anymore as both have been 'converted' to simple chokes, pic attached of the first one I did (the larger unit).

The guys who make the kits immediately knew the potential issues associated with the Schaffner filters and said that they are 99% sure the issue is with them, either way the feeling is these were probably not entirely needed, so the fact they have been re-modelled into a simple choke will hopefully not be a downward step - will advise when I get a chance to power up and see whats whats.

IMG_3053.jpg
 
Ahtough, in a similar drive, the just powering the drive does NOT trip the GFI. The motor must be commanded to run for the trip to happen. So the filters *could* be the problem.
Easy test is to just bypass them entirely. It's all slip-on crimp connectors, easy test. I would not dismantle the filters either.

What you really are meaning to say is: "how come the main spindle motor runs without tripping the GFI, but the feed motor drive, does?"
Nobody has come up with a theory why THIS is happening.

IIRC, the OP says "....but as soon as the carriage motor is engaged and run up the trip goes down.....".

So the filters are fine with power applied, as they are wired BEFORE the VFDs (on the power side as we have been told and shown).

It is running the motor up to speed that does the deed.

If filters were after the VFD this would be entirely understandable. As far as I know they were OK before being "snipped", and would not be any sort of an issue, in fact they would prevent some noise from going back to (and tripping) the RCD.

Water under the bridge now........

Theory is that the small motor may have a real problem, OR may just be higher capacitance and cause more spike (common mode) noise, which would go along nicely with the trip problem. Seems unusual, but I have seen some strange things.

Everything UP TO the motor and VFD output seems to be well out of it, as that has power applied without tripping anything.

Problem is either 1) with the motor 2) with the VFD 2a) an issue with how the VFD draws power from the line (not as likely, as a bigger one does not.)

The "advisor" seems to be the type who does not ask questions before giving the stock answer to the "Ass-u-me'd" problem, that may have zip to do with the issue.
Or it may be involved, although I'd like to know how, since that runs counter to my experience in similar situations.

I'd like to know for sure if the smaller motor does it with the larger NOT running, and if it does not, whether the problem then occurs when the larger is turned on.

The problem is that the RCD trips. This can be from:

1) noise leaks back on the line (or otherwise) and does it as a "false trip". (there is no actual ground current)

2) there is a "real leakage" that trips it legitimately (can be noise or power frequency "leaking", and the "leakage" may be in something that is supposed to conduct some current to ground, like a filter)

3) the RCD has a problem

4) something else we have not thought of....
 
Why Is not a rod 20 to 40 feet in the the earth not a ground to the power supplied?


Because the earth is not a copper (or aluminum) conductor, plus there is a fair bit more inductance in some setups that way (overhead line vs earth return).

Tripping the overload is not as positive. In the US, a ground rod can be up to 25 ohms resistance and still be OK, because it is not intended to be a conductor, it is just intended to make earth and the "grounding" system approximately the same potential.
 
What you really are meaning to say is: "how come the main spindle motor runs without tripping the GFI, but the feed motor drive, does?"
Nobody has come up with a theory why THIS is happening.

Only because you don't read my posts, nor the simple test suggested.

To be fair, I don't think you read anyone else's posts, either, so no foul, I don't take it "personal".
 
Why Is not a rod 20 to 40 feet in the the earth not a ground to the power supplied?

To elaborate on the other reply to this, a ground rod is not a protective earth, as it is unable to pass fault current. If you connect a ground rod to an outlet, you would have a live rod in mildly warm dirt.

The purpose of a ground rod is to equalize electrical potential of grounding points to prevent noise or excessive voltage differences. In some cases you are short circuiting the earth itself. Protective ground that carries current is just a low resistance path to neutral, and doesn't even have to be connected to the earth to do its job.
 
Why Is not a rod 20 to 40 feet in the the earth not a ground to the power supplied?

Legally it needs more. A suitable metallic connection as well. "Suitable" is variable.

Because.. the capacitance and resistance of the Earth is variable and unpredictable.

'Nam, we regularly poured Copper Sulfate solution down a perforated pipe in the center of a tight "nest" of ground rods. The laterite soil went six months with nonstop rain, then six months with NO rain. And Laterite is actually a low-grade Iron-ore!

So functionally? "sometimes it is."

Back in the USA, there have been a few instances of water utility service techs electrocuted when a fault put power onto the residence-side of a water line.

Open the connection to install a new meter and Iron mounting yoke, the yoke off-duty, power then crossed the installer enroute to the main line as "ground".

None of that met the definitions set by chatter on a manufacturing forum.

But the "warm dirt" HAD been a human being.

Water utility techs grew more cautious of course. We can learn from that?

It isn't that complicated. There is no shortage of publications on "bonding and grounding", "MIL-SPEC" included. I even WROTE one set of them. For Northrop-Page's dime.

Here is a decently written "light once-over" summary that cites relevant sections of "the code":

Communications Systems Grounding Rules | Electrical Contractor Magazine

Howard Hughes to Noah Dietrich again:

"Find the experts, Noah. Find the EXPERTS!"

Amateurs can get you "rectumfried".

No. Howard didn't say that.... but he'd have agreed with Peter Haas...
 
OK latest update, it appears that the motors are now not tripping the RCD, used in any combination at speed, on/off, under load which is very good news, maybe the fix suggested by the motor/VFD suppliers was good advice after all.

One interesting 'new' issue is however my coolant pump which is switched via the control panel and has not caused issues so far tripped the RCD when turned on, not entirely sure why this would now start to cause an issue when before it did not? Very bizarre. Might check its earthing to start with but its yet another motor which this time is NOT run through a VFD as its a single phase 240v unit. Over to the experts............ thats you guys but you know that already.

Just for info I was also running a 2kw heater off the ring at the same time as running the lathe etc just to ensure it could.

marc
 
One interesting 'new' issue is however my coolant pump which is switched via the control panel and has not caused issues so far tripped the RCD when turned on, not entirely sure why this would now start to cause an issue when before it did not? Very bizarre. Might check its earthing to start with but its yet another motor which this time is NOT run through a VFD as its a single phase 240v unit. Over to the experts............ thats you guys but you know that already.
Tried baiting a glue-trap with Marmite, putting it near the coolant-pump?

Not sure there's much else not already suggested...
 
OK latest update, it appears that the motors are now not tripping the RCD, used in any combination at speed, on/off, under load which is very good news, maybe the fix suggested by the motor/VFD suppliers was good advice after all.

Glad this worked out. So it was the design of the filter after all apparently. Good call on the manufacturer's part.
 
If you look at the filter specs, as mentioned way back, they have peaks, and how the combination works together affects if you are on them or not.. It is surprising, but "stuff happens".

Obviously was the interaction of the VFD with the filter, since the filter did not do it by itself.

May have had to do with one side being "grounded" as the neutral (grounded conductor).

The result suggests that you may not have needed filters at all. You might have been able to bypass them, or take them out and ebay them.
 








 
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