Electric cars worldwide - and Tesla

[Mechanola]

There are no rare earth motors in Tesla cars.
Lithium in batteries is not a rare earth, its abundant.
Rare earths are used in servos and steppers.

We don’t know at what percentage rare earth magnets are in use with EV
but they are. It’s the sum of many small and big motors, generators,
and spool magnets in the industry that makes tons and tons of samarium,
neodym, and all others.

I didn’t say lithium was a rare earth.

The subject of poisonous and radioactive metals in use makes me go
berserk. Energy saving bulbs have been pressed on us and they contain
mercury. Incandescent coil bulbs don’t. Automats steel and alloys containing
lead are so unnecessary. Tooth repair amalgam is totally unnecessary.
I am so glad I have no more heavy metals in my teeth! Sorry, I am a
burnt child.

 

[Ries]

I dont know many "shade tree mechanics" that buy $100,000 cars new.
Its kind of two different sets of car buyers.

Rich people buy $100,000 Teslas, with the idea that they will NEVER open the hood, and, that they will sell the car before it needs major work.
This is pretty much true for ALL $100k cars.

I keep trying to tell you guys-
if you worry about it lasting 500k miles, if you worry about buying parts, fixing it yourself, or lasting 30 years-

You are not the target market.
You will never be one of their customers, they know this already, and they dont care about your concerns.
The buyers of $100k cars just keep buying them, and not fixing their own cars.

Last month- March 2016- was the best year for new car sales in March in 16 years in the USA.
At an average price of $35,000.
2015 was the best year for car sales in over fifteen years, too, with 17.5 million new cars sold in the USA, and MORE sold in China.
And about 1/100th of one percent of those 17.5 million cars will ever be worked on by the owners.

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[hanermo]

This is not quite correct on facts.
There is a youtube video of a tesla motor being made.

The motors are actually a japanese motor, and tesla makes some themselves.
Theres a bill-of-lading somewhere from the japanese company making some of the motors.
No idea of mix/reason.

Its a std AC induction motor, ie a 3 phase motor like the spindle motor on most machine tools, with a VFD, that Haas calls vector drives.
Zero percent rare earths.

My very old Bp M head circa 1950 has a similar motor, and runs just fine, with maybe 20.000 - 40.000 hours of use on it, and its near silent.
I use a HItach VFD to drive it.

Most other electric cars do use rare earths in their motors.
Again, rationale for one or the other escapes me.

What is demonstrably true, is that AC induction motors are one of the cheapest, simplest, most rugged and powerful motive solutions made.
The 1940s (?) Bp 3-phase motor illustrates that quite well (new motors are much more efficient).

The tesla 300 kW / 500 Hp has a 28 kg mass, iirc, and thus costs approx 240 $ to make.
Anything like that is made at 8$/kg in qty 50k and up, per year.

Its one of the reasons that electric cars will take over.
Motors - cheap. Big motors - equally cheap.
Transmissions - none. Very Cheap.

Most ICE cars cost about 1/3 engine, tranmission, rest to build.
In a BEV 2/3 of that goes away, and the expensive battery subs for them.
But the battery costs dropped, greatly, 2011-2016.

Now, probably 110-130$ / kWh for Tesla, and maybe 180$ in 2013/2014.
And about 80-100$ for model 3, 2017.

At 100$, a 60 kW battery is 6000$. No big deal.

Biggest contaminant is probably cobalt, in the battery.

AC brushless servos do use rare earths, and are extremely efficient, long lasting, and increasingly, cheap.

My 2.5 kW AC brushless servo on lathe is half the size, and 40% the mass, of the 1/2 Hp Bridgeport motor.

We don’t know at what percentage rare earth magnets are in use with EV
but they are. It’s the sum of many small and big motors, generators,
and spool magnets in the industry that makes tons and tons of samarium,
neodym, and all others.

 

[Miguels244]

What tesla has to say about their motors.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors

 

[hanermo]

This is what Tesla uses.

"The 2012 Tesla Model S Performance model has a three phase, four pole AC induction 416 hp (310 kW) and 443 ft·lb (600 N·m) rear-mounted electric motor with copper rotor"
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a video of the motor being made.
Tesla Model S Motor Production - YouTube

The link You quoted mentions nothing about AC 3 phase motors.
And its from 2007.
Less than relevant, and not quite correct, on facts.

What tesla has to say about their motors.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors

 

[John Welden]

How big of a douche bag do you have to be to use another guys last name for your car company? Just because Musk sounds bad, doesn't mean you can use someone else's name. I hope Tesla goes bankrupt soon.

Maybe I should start a computer company and call it Steve Jobs Computers.

 

[Miguels244]

This is what Tesla uses.

"The 2012 Tesla Model S Performance model has a three phase, four pole AC induction 416 hp (310 kW) and 443 ft·lb (600 N·m) rear-mounted electric motor with copper rotor"
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a video of the motor being made.
Tesla Model S Motor Production - YouTube

The link You quoted mentions nothing about AC 3 phase motors.
And its from 2007.
Less than relevant, and not quite correct, on facts.

ummm yes it does talk about them, and goes on to explain their rational for using them.

 

[hanermo]

No it does not.
It talks about DC motors, which are not used on Tesla cars.

And talks about guesses going onto using DC motors.. in 2007.
The first Tesla S came out in 2012.

Treadmills use DC PM motors.
Steppers use PM motors, with rare earth magnets.

Nothign to do with AC induction, aka 3-phase industrial motors.

ummm yes it does talk about them, and goes on to explain their rational for using them.

 

[gustafson]

So these new fangled electric cars. Will I get 800km out of a tank of fuel and only take a few minutes to fill up?

Can I take spare fuel with me?

Will I get a couple of hundred thousand miles without any major issues?

Will it last thirty years with essentially no issues?

Essentially, will it be like a diesel powered vehicle made in the 1990's before everything became electronically controlled and highly unreliable in the long term compared to all mechanical designs.

Ahhh yes, the good old days when cars were perfect and lasted forever.

Funny, I got my drivers license in 1978, and there were exactly zero 1957 Chevy's on the road in Massachusetts. I exaggerate but I see them more often now than then, and I have always been a car guy.

Today there are over 1100 1995 cars on craigslist in my area



Our 66 Ford wagon was on its last legs in 1977. Rusted to the gunnels and leaking no charging system and eventually junked

My 1970 Opel was rotten to the gunnels in 1979

Cars routinely needed an alternator, starter, and second battery at 80k miles. A cap rotor and plugs every ? miles.

Why was there a transmission shop in every town?

Using the myth of superior old cars against unknown new technology is just pathetic

Old cars were crap, they broke all the time. If you want to argue they were cheaper to fix, you may have a point, but even then, the commonality of old cars on the road now calls that into question, as if a 1995 Toyota was so expensive to fix, why are they the most common beater?


We will see what happens with Tesla, but as the Prius' still motor on down the road after all the warnings of their technology dying, I think it is not a bad bet that Tesla will have similar reliability

Anyone who is commuting further than the Leafs range one way in a day needs a new job. And if they won't let you charge at work, you need a new job.

 

[Miguels244]

No it does not.
It talks about DC motors, which are not used on Tesla cars.

And talks about guesses going onto using DC motors.. in 2007.
The first Tesla S came out in 2012.

Treadmills use DC PM motors.
Steppers use PM motors, with rare earth magnets.

Nothign to do with AC induction, aka 3-phase industrial motors.

You must not have read anything past the headline...although even the headline is
"Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors"
...Unlike the DC brushless rotor, the induction rotor has no magnets – just stacked steel laminations with buried peripheral conductors that form a “shorted structure.” Currents flowing in the stator windings produce a rotating magnetic field that enters the rotor. In turn, the frequency of this magnetic field as “seen” by the rotor is equal to the difference between the applied electrical frequency and the rotational “frequency” of the rotor itself. Accordingly, an induced voltage exists across the shorted structure that is proportionate to this speed difference between the rotor and electrical frequency. In response to this voltage, currents are produced within the rotor conductors that are approximately proportionate to the voltage, hence the speed difference. Finally, these currents interact with the original magnetic field to produce forces – a component of which is the desired rotor torque....

 

[CarbideBob]

What tesla has to say about their motors.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors

Not so much worry about "rare earth" content here. Those that have them tend be flexible on world pricing after one or two years of raping the public.
So autos are much about weight. Gazillions are spent to shave a quarter ounce or a few grams off every part.
Less mass = less energy to get it moving. Very nice thing on a EV you get some energy back into your battery when you slow down.
No sense dumping this extra energy into a resistor bank and making heat.
Range/mileage on freeway vehicles are just not the same as stop/start city stuff so range on a EV does not really address the environment in which it actually works best.
Part of the problem here is that the range numbers don't reflect real world usage and at this point the user base is not large enough to make noise on this side.

Miguels, you do automation right??? Your view as to motor type as a best choice? One trades power density against cost.

Perhaps the best idea is not a car but a "computer on wheels".
Self driving and smart. Go to work, get out, the car finds the cheapest power and goes to it.
In any automated plant the forklifts and agvs go off on their own, plug in and recharge. Swap the tasking to the guy with a full charge.
Strange.... what is now SOP in a old school ICE auto plant may be the best for the cars of tomorrow for city transportation.
Bob

 

[Gordon B. Clarke]

Perhaps the best idea is not a car but a "computer on wheels".
Self driving and smart. Go to work, get out, ......
Bob

In Europe we call this form of transport "a bus"

 

[Miguels244]

Miguels, you do automation right??? Your view as to motor type as a best choice? One trades power density against cost.

Yep, it depends.
The article goes through a few of the parameters.
In my world we use PM synchronous motors when we need accurate motion profiles...and induction for almost everything else.

For a drive motor I'd just have to do the numbers, seems each manufacturer does that and comes to their own conclusion.
Overall, I suspect that induction motors will become more common unless an alternative can be found for rare earths..
Particularly as battery energy density increases and efficiency is less important.
Plus they weigh less and cost less.

like I said, unless you need motion control we use asynchronous motors when we can.

That, of course may change at any time pending technological advances.

My personal 'favorite' motor is the printed voice coil brushed doc motor.
With electro magnets instead of PMs.

But only because I think it's cool...not for ant engineering reason.

 

[wheels17]

@gustafson, you are so right. My dad bought a 1969 Oldsmobile in Springfield, Ma. I can remember driving it in high school and being refused entry into the car wash. The back fenders were rusted out and loose at the bottom and they thought they would tear up their brushes. I graduated from high school in 1972.

 

[Mike1974]

I often wonder how many buy their car with their heart rather than their head.

Short trips vs long trips.
City vs out in the country.
Driving alone vs large family
Need for large trunk space vs a few groceries etc.

One of my friends has just bought a large Honda 4WD (in flat Denmark!) and I know he only drives short trips and never leaves Denmark. When I asked why he bought it his reply was "I wanted one".

His money and his choice but I just don't get it.

Changing subject then with the price of gas in Europe then the focus on fuel efficency etc. is becoming more and more a factor.

A few years back i worked with a lady that her and her husband both were driving BIG suvs (they had one child at the time), back when gas was pushing $4/gallon. I never understood that, guess they didn't mind spending $400/month in gas so they could drive what they wanted...

 

[Gordon B. Clarke]

A few years back i worked with a lady that her and her husband both were driving BIG suvs (they had one child at the time), back when gas was pushing $4/gallon. I never understood that, guess they didn't mind spending $400/month in gas so they could drive what they wanted...

When my wife and I were in Tx we rented what I considered a big SUV. As gas in the USA only costs half what I'm used to spending it seemed cheap

 

[Philabuster]

How big of a douche bag do you have to be to use another guys last name for your car company? Just because Musk sounds bad, doesn't mean you can use someone else's name. I hope Tesla goes bankrupt soon.

Maybe I should start a computer company and call it Steve Jobs Computers.

I would agree, but in this particular instance, Tesla was the father of the modern world and invented the A/C motor, along with a shitload of other things he never got credit for.

That said, the Tesla company name was picked before Musk even got involved with the company.

Who Is Tesla Named For? - Business Insider

 

[John Welden]

I would agree, but in this particular instance, Tesla was the father of the modern world and invented the A/C motor, along with a shitload of other things he never got credit for.

That said, the Tesla company name was picked before Musk even got involved with the company.

Who Is Tesla Named For? - Business Insider

Meh, he's still a douche.

 

[pepi]

Funny how the cost and life of the battery packs are always left out when discussing the electrics. 2018 gas powered car manufacture gone .... that's a bet I will take, be back in 2018 to collect LOL.

 

[Greg White]

I want a electric car,not getting one this year,but I am watching!
HOLE SHOT!
Gw