Elgin / Hardinge lathe help

[Dave.Phillips]

Hello all!!

I can use some help with my next resurrection...

I just got this lathe and I'm needing some help with the thread size on the head and some ideas what changes this lathe had.

Ok what I know ... ( or I think I know lol )

1) The bed is a number 4 Elgin 32" with the optional tray. I'd presume 1920 time frame.

2) Compound looks like Elgin. I haven't found and Hardinge stamps yet!.

I'd HELP time please!!!

3) Headstock is stamped Hardinge .599 notice the uncommon noise thread and oilers. Now I understand someone probably installed the oilers however the fittings are factory. It also appears to take 4C collets.

4) Tailstock has matching numbers with the head ... I'm happy with that!!!! Tailstock is also a bit different being open Fram however I know they existed in some models and custom made lathes.

Like I mentioned I need some help with the Headstock thread size and you're best guesses what this lathe experienced.

My thoughts are this...

I believe this lathe was purchased as a complete lathe from Elgin sometime in the 20's. The Headstock and Tailstock were added as upgrades and or shop changes sometime in 30's maybe. Notice the stripped teeth in the back of Headstock indicates that this Headstock was used on another lathe that utilized the threading options from Hardinge we're the Elgin #4 bed I have doesn't support this option as it has no T-slot in the back of the ways. That's why I mentioned possible shop upgrade we're the gear stripped and the headstock and tailstock we're transferred to the older Elgin lathe that would essentially make it a Hardinge #5 lathe less the back T-slot and at 32" not 38".

Photos in next post

And thank you!!!!

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Hello all!!

I can use some help with my next resurrection...

I just got this lathe and I'm needing some help with the thread size on the head and some ideas what changes this lathe had.

Ok what I know ... ( or I think I know lol )

1) The bed is a number 4 Elgin 32" with the optional tray. I'd presume 1920 time frame.

2) Compound looks like Elgin. I haven't found and Hardinge stamps yet!.

I'd HELP time please!!!

3) Headstock is stamped Hardinge .599 notice the uncommon noise thread and oilers. Now I understand someone probably installed the oilers however the fittings are factory. It also appears to take 4C collets.

4) Tailstock has matching numbers with the head ... I'm happy with that!!!! Tailstock is also a bit different being open Fram however I know they existed in some models and custom made lathes.

Like I mentioned I need some help with the Headstock thread size and you're best guesses what this lathe experienced.

My thoughts are this...

I believe this lathe was purchased as a complete lathe from Elgin sometime in the 20's. The Headstock and Tailstock were added as upgrades and or shop changes sometime in 30's maybe. Notice the stripped teeth in the back of Headstock indicates that this Headstock was used on another lathe that utilized the threading options from Hardinge we're the Elgin #4 bed I have doesn't support this option as it has no T-slot in the back of the ways. That's why I mentioned possible shop upgrade we're the gear stripped and the headstock and tailstock we're transferred to the older Elgin lathe that would essentially make it a Hardinge #5 lathe less the back T-slot and at 32" not 38".

Photos in next post

And thank you!!!!

Sorry for the mess in the shop I just moved and I have STUFF all over lol... this lathe showed up and I had to grab it

 

[jim rozen]

Toolmaker's compound likely hardinge - the stamp is luking under the rust on the slide with the t-slot for the toolpost. The tailstock is the same as the one that came with my 5/9 cataract lathe. Bed of course with the square feet, is elgin.

 

[L Vanice]

How about posting a picture of the Hardinge markings on the headstock (flat face under the spindle nose)?

The headstock and tailstock look like Hardinge Cataract 9 inch made from around 1904 to 1917 or so. I cut it off at 1917 because somewhere around there or earlier they added a lever collet closer boss to the back side of the left headstock spindle bearing. The slide rest looks like the correct Hardinge Cataract model for the headstock and tailstock. The tool tray looks like a Hardinge. If the headstock takes 4C collets, the thread is 1 5/8-10. The faceplate looks like a Hardinge.

I see no stripped gear in those pictures. I do see pipe wrench scars on the brass portion next to the knob on the collet draw bar. If the headstock ever had a threading gear, it was a sliding fit on the left end of the spindle, where you will see a shallow keyway to drive the gear. That part of the spindle also could attach part of a lever collet closer.

The bed is an oddity. I once bought a similar oddity; a lathe with Hardinge Cataract headstock and tailstock on a bed (that fit the unaltered Hardinge parts) with Pratt & Whitney cast into the front.

Larry

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Thanks all!!...

I will keep digging on the compound for the markings.

Headstock is stamped 559 photo in next post.

I found information on a 9" Harding say the spindle thread 2-3/16 x 10 TPI this isn't correct?

Yes the bes is Elgin #4 Chicago Illinois stamped. Its 32" long.

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Headstock stamp

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Headstock stamp

Also the collets are not all Hardinge or should say stamp with any branding and none are labeled 4C

 

[L Vanice]

If the headstock takes 5C collets, the thread is 2 3/16-10. Post #1 said, "It also appears to take 4C collets." It is pretty easy to measure the spindle thread. It is pretty easy to measure the collets. It is not easy to measure your pictures.

Franklin Hardinge sold off Hardinge Brothers, Chicago in 1929-30 and the company was moved to Elmira, NY to start production of newly designed machines, including lathes with enclosed headstocks driven by V-belts from underneath the bench. Shortly after 1930, Franklin Hardinge, who also owned Hardinge Manufacturing Co., Chicago in the same building as the Hardinge Brothers factory, bought the name of Elgin Tool Works, Elgin, IL. Franklin Hardinge then added Elgin Tool Works Division to his Hardinge Mfg. Co., which mainly made oil burner conversions for coal furnaces. He designed new Elgin lathes that were more like his old Cataract lathes than the original Elgin designs. So the Hardinge headstock No. 559 was built around 1907 and the Elgin Tool Works, Chicago bed was built after 1932 or so.

Larry

 

[Dave.Phillips]

If the headstock takes 5C collets, the thread is 2 3/16-10. Post #1 said, "It also appears to take 4C collets." It is pretty easy to measure the spindle thread. It is pretty easy to measure the collets. It is not easy to measure your pictures.

Franklin Hardinge sold off Hardinge Brothers, Chicago in 1929-30 and the company was moved to Elmira, NY to start production of newly designed machines, including lathes with enclosed headstocks driven by V-belts from underneath the bench. Shortly after 1930, Franklin Hardinge, who also owned Hardinge Manufacturing Co., Chicago in the same building as the Hardinge Brothers factory, bought the name of Elgin Tool Works, Elgin, IL. Franklin Hardinge then added Elgin Tool Works Division to his Hardinge Mfg. Co., which mainly made oil burner conversions for coal furnaces. He designed new Elgin lathes that were more like his old Cataract lathes than the original Elgin designs. So the Hardinge headstock No. 559 was built around 1907 and the Elgin Tool Works, Chicago bed was built after 1932 or so.

Larry

Update on the compound... I was able to find the Hardinge stamp on the compound... it's actually almost worn out... I barely see the H and parts of the oval-shaped stamp. No rust what that is actually gummed up oil ...

Collet measure 3" in length that places them at 4C.

1-5/8 10 tpi lathe chuck this will be some adventure finding one

Larry I wonder how a 1932 Elgin bed found its way to a 1907 headstock lol lol

 

[Richard King]

Here is a good site showing a lot of pictures and some history facts.

Elgin Machine Tools

The next history talks about how one of the Hardinge brothers Franklin bought the assets of Elgin Chicago in the depression. It is very interesting read. Here is part of it. In summary: Hardinge Brothers Inc. of New York did not own the Elgin Tool Works during the 1930's, but Franklin Hardinge did, calling it a division of his own Hardinge Mfg. Co and with tags attached to machines proclaiming that fact. Also read the last paragraph where they talk about many ealy lathe mfg's. used their own taper sizes. That may be the same on headstock spindle threads. Buy a thread gage and micrometer the OD and that should show you. You may have to make an adapter to fit the lathe thread to a chuck close to the size you need. http://www.lathes.co.uk/cataract/page7.html

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Thanks Richard yes I located that site when doing my research

I'd surely like to locate....

1) 1-5/8 10 tpi chuck
2) the gear cutting/milling attachment for the compound

 

[L Vanice]

The first Hardinge lathe I bought around 1977 had the 4C headstock with the threads. I made a chuck mount for it, but soon got a 5C headstock and never used the 1 5/8-10 threaded tooling I picked up over the years. I can say that that tooling is very rare and I have only found a few items (no chucks). A 4C plug chuck can be machined with a male thread or other configuration to attach a small jaw chuck.

4C Plug Chuck

4C Plug Chuck

shop.hardinge.com

I sold the two Hardinge milling attachments I had a few years ago.




The English Myford 7" lathes had very nice milling attachments without a live spindle. You can get fairly decent cheap Indian copies from eBay sellers. They have T-slots to hold the work and Myford also made a vise to attach to the T-slots. One version just goes up and down and the other has the slide on two swivels so you can mill angles. I bought my Myford attachments in London in the 1970's and they can work on a Hardinge lathe, but I have milling machines to do my milling.

myford | eBay

Larry

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Thanks for all the information Larry!! And others!!

Guess I will just purchase a lot of 4C collets and run it.

I'm not a machinist I'm tinkering and learning what I can. I'm currently enjoying fixing antique clocks so collets are perfect. Unfortunately I believe during this time frame 3C collets we're better for clockmakers.

The Tailstock is almost not usable except for turning between centers. My clockmakers lathe is a G.boley and they call the Tailstock runners and are basically used for alignment of stock in the headstock. It appears that Elgin and Hardinge geared the lathes to accommodate clockmakers during this time-frame???

The attachment I was looking for was the Elgin I think #20 for gear cutting. I was thinking it would be nice to dedicate this lathe for that and I can practice without having to constantly change my milling machine setup.

Ok what is recommended for a Quick change tool post?

 

[jim rozen]

Note that the tailstock you have is NOT MT one - unless somebody's modified it. It's likely a proprietary taper. There's no reason you can't use a drill chuck in that, though. You can make a replacement ram or carefully rework the one you have.

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Thanks Jim … yeah I figured it was probably a special tapper. I noticed Elgin made 3 different sized dead centers for their tail stock. I will figure something out when I get to the resurrection of the lathe.

I just moved and currently working on renovation and the shop isn’t setup yet. I have a brand new PM-938 mill that just arrived two or three weeks ago that I’m dying to run lol lol

Any idea on a QC set? I’m assuming I will be making a T adapter for the post and that’s not a problem.

 

[L Vanice]

Hardinge makes a very nice quick change tool post set for their 9" lathes, and that is what I use. But the new prices from Hardinge are amazingly high, so you could see what is available used on eBay. The size A Multifix set also fits, and that is what I use on my Clausing lathe. The Chinese copies of those 40 position sets are not terribly expensive, though may still cost more than you paid for your lathe. There are other Chinese products that will work, but I am not personally familiar with them.

The Hardinge L18 QC post (only):

L18 Fast-Change Tool Holder Base

<p>The tool holder base, also known as the quick-change tool holder, uses interchangeable tool holders to speed production and add versatility. It mounts directly to the quick-acting tool post slide.</p> <p>Tool holders are changed by unlocking the handle, changing the holder, and re-locking the...

shop.hardinge.com

A used L18 and one L21 holder:

Hardinge L18 Quickchange toolpost and holder | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Hardinge L18 Quickchange toolpost and holder at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Chinese copy of size A Multifix:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114462200781?hash=item1aa67a93cd:g:FXIAAOSwSyBfhqFe&amdata=enc:AQAIAAAA0MDH6cJ4X8dy4j7qpg4+RycKbQvVPebovhnrMc+X4nZ4tERkJQsIG8vSNOSFqFKxap+zMPMXeXM04e4tY4DnFxQ14R/z3kiwOlBJ/TG1Dk5z3+2Yhxirja5nvPPVnoISINNQTICbwQPo4kbpQBptPSKDt5Md+OOdwxDytYWEi7uo/GR3mctSDUyv1JKstNOXsQkUQk525fhU5J21ycgDr797XLhceCbhcK7lrEMgKNNvsgNqw9zPfMmHBMRG5wLcIBrNvkZBFvtt3X5TOD60ZW8=|tkp:Bk9SR_TKx4yIYg

The original Cataract tailstock taper is their own design and centers and drill chucks are scarce, though I have a few.



Larry

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Hardinge makes a very nice quick change tool post set for their 9" lathes, and that is what I use. But the new prices from Hardinge are amazingly high, so you could see what is available used on eBay. The size A Multifix set also fits, and that is what I use on my Clausing lathe. The Chinese copies of those 40 position sets are not terribly expensive, though may still cost more than you paid for your lathe. There are other Chinese products that will work, but I am not personally familiar with them.

The Hardinge L18 QC post (only):

L18 Fast-Change Tool Holder Base

<p>The tool holder base, also known as the quick-change tool holder, uses interchangeable tool holders to speed production and add versatility. It mounts directly to the quick-acting tool post slide.</p> <p>Tool holders are changed by unlocking the handle, changing the holder, and re-locking the...

shop.hardinge.com

A used L18 and one L21 holder:

Hardinge L18 Quickchange toolpost and holder | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Hardinge L18 Quickchange toolpost and holder at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Chinese copy of size A Multifix:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114462200781?hash=item1aa67a93cd:g:FXIAAOSwSyBfhqFe&amdata=enc:AQAIAAAA0MDH6cJ4X8dy4j7qpg4+RycKbQvVPebovhnrMc+X4nZ4tERkJQsIG8vSNOSFqFKxap+zMPMXeXM04e4tY4DnFxQ14R/z3kiwOlBJ/TG1Dk5z3+2Yhxirja5nvPPVnoISINNQTICbwQPo4kbpQBptPSKDt5Md+OOdwxDytYWEi7uo/GR3mctSDUyv1JKstNOXsQkUQk525fhU5J21ycgDr797XLhceCbhcK7lrEMgKNNvsgNqw9zPfMmHBMRG5wLcIBrNvkZBFvtt3X5TOD60ZW8=|tkp:Bk9SR_TKx4yIYg

The original Cataract tailstock taper is their own design and centers and drill chucks are scarce, though I have a few.

View attachment 396585

Larry

Thanks Larry!!! I will get the Chinese one ... Hardinge was what $8.7k

That's a interesting QC tool post! I haven't seen that design before.

Do you happen to have a chuck setup for my Tailstock that you'd like to sell?

I actually can't wait to start working on this I happened to stumble upon it on Craigslist just surfing around and drove 3 hours round trip to get it.

 

[jim rozen]

You notice there are two tailstock rams in the photo above. The original one is sitting alongside the tailstock, the replacement is installed. One issue (you may find you are in the same situation) is there's no way to adjust the height of the tailstock bore in that setup. My tailstock had lots of wear on the underside. I manufactured the ram and bored the hole in it on center, and set it up for MT1 instead.

If you are careful you can simply re-work the tailstock ram to be number one morse. Don't just run a morse reamer through it as it may wind up off axis in some strange way, best to bore it close to size and then
finish with a reamer. Alternatively you could just manufacture a batch of cataract taper stubs to use when needed.

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Thanks Jim ...

Maybe Larry will let go of one drill chuck

 

[Dave.Phillips]

Well after thinking about this Tailstock Jim's idea of making a new ram is now more probable.

Problems to overcome in making it...

1) My atlas 10D lathe is out far enough we're I will need to drill the center hole on my mill ... first project for my new mill : working holding for this drilling operation will be interesting on the mill.

2) That center hole looks pretty deep so I'm assuming some long drill bits

3) locating a #0 reamer

Idea is currently this...I have this adjustable chuck holder I use on my sherline lathe and I love it. It uses a #0 MT. Also sherline sells other #0 adapters I'd be able to use. When aligned with a coaxial indicator the holes are normally within .0005" or less. I use that adjustable adapter for make clock bushing holes. They have the adapter for 1/4 and 3/4 chuck's.