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Facemill selection, SEHT, or HNGJ Insert?

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
Looking at a couple 45 degree facemills. Mostly wondering how the performance is on the 45degree facemill that takes HNGJ, double sided hex inserts like the one maritool sells. Inserts cost a fair bit more than the high shear SEHT-SEET 4edge single sided insert, but the Hex obviously costs less "per edge" since it has 12 vs 4.

Trying to see if I should pick one and do it all with it, or if I need both styles?
I take it the 4sided one would do better in the soft materials, there's a few videos of it chewing steel but to me that type of very positive edge looks easy to break? then again lower cutting force can sometimes do miracles.
Hex style is more negative with a positive chip breaker, and I'd expect it to last longer in steel and stainless. But that also depends on insert grade selection in each type.
So which is better/more cost effective in the long run and will get by on the largest variety of materials? and also typically easiest to find good inserts for?
Facemills like that are not something I ever really had to use much on my manual work, mostly still just flycut when needed and even that is rare.

If there's another type I should look into that is well priced please let me know.

Thanks
 

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
And insert life is decent doing that, vs. a negative rake design?
I'll probably give it a try, glacern seems to have a real good price on them and the polished inserts for aluminum. Wasn't sure if I should get the 3" or 4" facemill though, 4" seems to get a little out there and could chatter more, any issues there?

Any specific insert grade I should check into if I want to run steel or Stainless with this same cutter? I see some just have a flat face and no chip breaker, do they do ok?
 

Finegrain

Diamond
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Location
Seattle, Washington
The Glacern 4" is what I'm running. I'm using it on a little 3 HP NMTB40 horizontal and I haven't had any chatter. Just dial in the DOC until the ammeter is in the red. Lack of chipbreaker doesn't seem to be an issue.

Don't have much to add on insert grades. I think I'm using whatever steel grade Glacern sells alongside the facemill itself.

Regards.

Mike
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
I take it the 4sided one would do better in the soft materials, there's a few videos of it chewing steel but to me that type of very positive edge looks easy to break? then again lower cutting force can sometimes do miracles.

I have cut quite a bit of 4140 with the SEH style. I like them.
I would not say they are brittle. But of course - I guess it depends on what insert you put in it. A blowed set of inserts will trash the tool!

I would not recommend anythng over 2.5", unless you have an app that you want to cover the whole surface of. But for general purpose I would stick with a 2.5 or MAYBE a 3" if your feeling your Wheaties. You'll run out of power before you run out of cutter.

Too big of cutter will not allow you to run much DOC, thus wearing your inserts quicker. And since your machine doesn't have a low range, I wouldn't even go to 3".


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Joined
May 26, 2004
Location
Paradise, Ca
To back up what Ox is saying about facemill size, I used to run a cast iron job with a 3" SEHT tool and rough / finish the bottom of the part in one pass. Now I'm using a 2" APKT facemill with two passes radially and am finishing the parts in LESS time, plus the inserts last longer. In my case, I found that this is a horsepower (HAASpower in my case) and rigidity issue, not a cutter issue.
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
Actually - we run a 2" normally.


BTW - you will run out of power quicker in alum than you will steel.

Believe it!

(If you've got a lot to deck off that is...)


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

Captdave

Titanium
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Location
Atlanta, GA
I use the Glacern FM45-300 3" 45* face mill with excellent results, but as other have said you'll run out of HP before you exceed the cutters limitations.

The price for the tool and inserts makes the combination a very good value.
 

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
Generally I just need to skim the top to make it pretty, not much DOC, and the less passes the better for looks generally. So perhaps I'll get one 2.5 and one 4".

Next thing is gonna be good endmill selection, so many choices, so much variation in prices from $20 to $200 for 1/2 endmills... ugh.
 

Limy Sami

Diamond
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Location
Norfolk, UK
This where Sami gets flamed.:D


I always look at the insert price and availability - a single manufacturer / special insert combo can be much more expensive than the time / part saved.
 

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
The sowa catalog shows some SEH inserts. Doesn't sound like anyone's running the 6sided HNG style??

I didn't check any of the big names make yet to see what the deal is with each insert style. When it comes to these lower cost import holders I always figure its probably copied from someone else's design, have it be kenna, sandvik, iscar, whoever. So usually one of these guys might have something.

Anyone who know started the SEH stuff?
I remember a valenite cutter with 8 sided positive inserts (OFKT?) that had a similar positive rake to them, they seemed to plow through material pretty good. But I haven't seen this style of insert used on the less expensive import holders yet.
 

Limy Sami

Diamond
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Location
Norfolk, UK
BTW - you will run out of power quicker in alum than you will steel.

Believe it!

(If you've got a lot to deck off that is...)


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

True, I've been caught out a couple of times......... that stuff takes more HP than you think.
 

Captdave

Titanium
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Location
Atlanta, GA
I agree Limi, sometimes you can really shoot yourself in the foot in the long run buying non standard tooling/inserts from a specific vendor. SEH inserts seem to be pretty common item for most vendors.
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
I remember a valenite cutter with 8 sided positive inserts (OFKT?) that had a similar positive rake to them, they seemed to plow through material pretty good. But I haven't seen this style of insert used on the less expensive import holders yet.


Yrs ago I had a job decking down some threaded rods. Just had to put a flat the whole length. I was running the Kenna 45* type. Job ran good. We got maybe 200 - 225 parts per index on a 4 fl cutter.

This part was one of three in a family, and we got a huge order for the familly. I needed to hire some help, or pass off some of the werk to a chumm. I like to reciprocate if possible, but since I seldom farm out chip making opperations this is tough.

I sent the job to a chumm that should have been able to run it fine and make $50/hr easy enough. But instead of using the set-up, tooling, machine, and params I told him, he went with a tool from Iscar that had 8 sides I think.

They fought that job. Even new inserts didn't cut very freely and burrs were an issue. Turned out half the parts/hr that I did and fought it the whole way.

Later we brought it back inhouse. I went to a dbl vise and stacked them very close together and went with a bigger D cutter that could catch both at once, and knocked them out twice as fast as before, and with no problems.

I like the high shear geo!


No idea why he didn't ever give up and try my method. ???


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

coyotekid

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Location
Montana
For what it's worth, we have a Sowa 2" 3 insert face mill that takes SEET inserts. This thing rips through aluminum like a junkyard dog after an insurance salesman. Using the Sowa branded high polish inserts (actually made by Korloy), it leaves a great surface finish. It's easy on HP, too. Even in a Haas Mini, I can take .150" DOC at 1.75" WOC going 80 IPM and not overload the spindle. For aluminum and plastics, it's my favorite face mill in the shop.

We also have a 2" Sandvik 245 that I really like also. It does a great job with the aluminum specific inserts, and it's a lot more versatile than the Sowa 3 flute. I ran my first stainless with this mill a few days ago after getting some stainless specific inserts from Sandvik, and I was impressed.

I'm not sure what types of materials you generally work with, but if you have to switch around a lot like I do, it's really nice to have a dedicated aluminum mill and another for steels so you're not constantly swapping out inserts.
 

Alloy Mcgraw

Titanium
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Location
CT, USA
I have one of the 2.5" Glacerns for my 45degree facemill, well worth the $100 or whatever they charge. Inserts are a breeze to find from many manufacturers, and it plows through 1018 and 65-45-12 all day. Don't do much aluminum, so i can't comment on how it performs there, but my guess is well.
 

Evogun

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Location
British Columbia
I been looking at a combo of insert endmill and face mill, in other words cover to birds one stone. Mitsubishi makes a good combo APX + the smaller insert endmills can ramp at 16 degree angle. I think this way I can do facing contouring same insert and 2 different tools, Just a thought. I looked at 5/8 3/4 and 1" end mills, and they are huge coin so this seemed like a pretty easy solution. They also make inserts for aluminium, steel(alloy) etc that all work in the same holder. If your a first time buyer they offer you a nice discount too.

Might be a good idea if you only have one VMC.
 

Billiam

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Orange, CA
Only the square inserts have chamfers on the corners, which act as wipers. Hex and octo inserts don't, so you end up with a rougher surface finish.

Iscar makes high feed and "medium feed" style cutters, but feedmills are only good for roughing. They leave lousy surface finishes, so you still need a finishing tool.

but the Hex obviously costs less "per edge" since it has 12 vs 4.

3 times the cutting edges at 3 times the price, no savings there. Also, if you chip one edge, it could potentially take out several others in close proximity.

Much less risky and much less money tied up in the square inserts.
 

PixMan

Diamond
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Location
Central MA USA
For face mills in manual machines I would not even think about something with proprietary inserts. Good ol' SEKN, SEHT, SEHW, SEET, etc. styles abound, and from a wide variety of makers. Because there's so many inserts out there you can get great pricing. Cost per edge as compared to the more-proprietary octagonal or hexagonal inserts can be dramatically lower. The productivity of the more-expensive geometries can be there in task-specific applications, lowering cost-per-edge, but for general purpose/whatever falls in the door kind of work I'd go with the square positives.

What I *would* look for is the thicker "43" size over the "42" size. I have cutters that use both, and the thicker inserts really seem to be able to take more abuse than the thinner ones.
 








 
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