Fadal turcite replacement and regrind.

[Ianagos]

Well it has come to my attention that one of my fadals has a major issue. I was leveling the machine and cleaning and realized the table was not true to the base. It was off by a huge amount. So I did some quick checking and the left y axis way has little to no turcite.
I did try to measure from the y axis way to the top of the x box ways and it was out of the travel range of my indicator.

So now I’m trying to figure out what to do. I definitely have to install new turcite there’s no doubt about that. But should I try to get the y axis ways repaired or let it ride? If I opt to fix the y axis ways there’s 2 options. Dissemble the entire machine and send it out or try out scraping with a die grinder like a few member here have tried. I don’t think I will dissemble the whole machine. If that happens then I’m sending all the sheetmetal to get powder coated and I think that’s too much for me right now as next year I’m planning on getting a new machine anyways.

So how does the die grinder scraping work? Should I bother or will I only make it worse? I do have a large granite table as well as 3 foot and 4 foot granite masters.

Thinking about asking cash how much he would charge to grind the table and x axis ways. The x ways do look in good shape but if I’m going to do the y ways I figure I might as well get the machine tip top. I’ll probably send out the ballscrews as well there is a local place that will do them for $500 each (is that reasonable?)

So that’s the situation and what I’m thinking. What do you guys think? These are my options

A:just fix the turcite and call it a day

B:regrind the y axis ways myself and do the turcite

C: send the base casting and table to get reground and do the turcite myself

D just send the whole machine to a rebuilding place.


Also for reference the machine is a 2002 Fadal 4020ht with chip conveyer and datc.
Other than this the machine is not bad and functional.

 

[Ianagos]

Well I haven’t heard anything but I also haven’t had the time to get the machine apart.

I started messing around with some scraping instead... i grabbed an old tool steel block i had laying around and went at it. I hindsight I should have milled it flat first but I’m past that now.

After 30 minutes I had this.

Then I got to this I had heavy bluing as I was roughing because there was still a valley in the center.

After about an hour I got to this. I’m not sure how to count the high points but I’d say 5 points per inch pretty even on the entire block.

 

[Ianagos]

Well now I need some more help scraping but tomorrow I’ll try to scrape the other side of the block parallel. I am pretty satisfied with the surface I got. If I could get that on the machine it would be pretty good but I don’t think it’s nearly as easy. My block is much flatter than the fadal ways.

Also does anyone know where I can get some contrast color. I was having trouble seeing the blue by the end I was basically just trying to cut the shiny high spots. I have heard of red lead but I don’t think I want to mess with any lead oxides.

I also think I’m reaching the practical limit of the setup I’m using. I think a 2” wheel would help pin point the spots better. I also think a real scraper would help but this is tool steel so I don’t know if it would be any help. I am trying to simulate the fadal hardened ways while also learning the basics of scraping.

 

[Paolo_MD]

Your scraping looks good. It is important to survey the depth you are getting: the difference between the "peaks" and the "valleys" should be at least .0002-.0003 in.

Regarding spotting and contrasting, look for Charbonnel Aqua Wash Etching Inks: water soluble, very intense Prussian blue, and various choices of yellows, oranges, etc.

Paolo

 

[Ianagos]

Thank you this is the first time I’ve ever scraped anything.

Today I decided to get the other side flat and parallel. The stock was bar cut so I threw it in the 4 jaw to square the other side roughly then I got it within about .008” which wasn’t great. Then started grinding/scraping on the part and man I could not believe how long it took me to get down .008” to get the part parallel.

Once I was within about .001” of parallel I was noticing the part was pivoting badly on the already scraped side. Well the thick block of steel bowed. Leaving me with a not flat surface. So to get closer I decided to rescrape the first side.

This is the first side.

I’m still working on the other side to get that last .001” of taper out. Now I have a decent surface to refrange against.

Scraping depth is about .0001-.0003 there are a few gouges that are indicate about .0003” deep but I think they are deeper but the radius of the indicator ball keeps me from reading the actual depth.

 

[Ianagos]

Here is a video I made. Please feel free to comment on what I’m doing wrong I’d appreciate any tips you guys could give me.

Next I need to setup to learn to scrape turcite

The block does help me get some geometry concepts down and although I know it’s completely different than doing the table and saddle.

Edit I forgot to link the video

Precision scraping tool steel. - YouTube

 

[rotarySMP]

You forgot to link the video.

Nice work on the grind scraping.

 

[Garwood]

That's kinda the tough part about Fadal. You get a machine that's right smack in the middle of "OK" and then you find out the ways and Turcite are shit.


On a constructive note I would seriously do a total time and cost breakdown of what this is going to entail and then consider dumping it and buying something else.

 

[Mud]

FWIW that angle die grinder looks clumsy. I notice that because having the right tool made a night and day difference in my scraping. Here's a pic of a long necked angle grinder that I would choose if I had to do that job.There are good ones like Ingersoll and Dotco, on the other hand HF makes one that's about $30 on sale. I have a good one, I also bought one from HF to try and it has no power at all for cutoff work, but probably plenty for scraping like that.

 

[aarongough]

Practice 'scraping' looks good so far. One of the reasons I have stayed away from box way machines was because of issues like this... I always figured if I needed to replace the linear ways then at least it's basically a 'bolt on' operation, assuming you get matched sets of rails.

I'll be interested to see what you decide to do. I feel like this is one of those things where if you have the experience and equipment to do it then it's probably a couple of day job, but first time doing it might take weeks... I imagine the hardest part will be measurement. Like how to make sure the machine is 'level' before starting work on the ways so you're not grinding in a twist? Etc...

If the machine is otherwise good and you were planning to keep it then I think it's likely worth the investment. If you were going to sell the machine anyway then perhaps it's time to get the new one early...

 

[Paolo_MD]

Your video looks good. I don't know if this is the case, but sometimes you grind more material off spinning the cutoff wheel slower. I agree that .0001" per pass (and, in normal scraping discussion, what you are doing are two passes, rather than one) is too little.

You are on the good way being careful in laying down distinct lines of equally spaced individual marks. Don't worry if some blue is left after a pass, since you will catch it with the next pass. But, by laying down a regular checkerboard pattern, you will achieve fairly rapidly a even distribution of spots.

When you have still a few low spots, it's more profitable do do some step scraping, marking off with a Sharpie the low areas that you shouldn't touch, and dividing the remaining surface in areas to scrape once (e.g. ~3/8" band of the areas that now doesn't blue, possibly .0003" lower than the high spots), areas to scrape twice (e.g. anything < 0.002" to the highest spots), and areas to scrape three times.
This way you do not need to spend time bluing the part between scraping cycles.

One thing that Richard insists on is to set zero on your lowest spot, rather than your high spot. It makes perfect sense, since you then use a constant reference point (i.e. you never touch the lowest spot, whereas you keep lowering the highest ones) and it makes much easier to compare between cycles and better evaluate the results of step-scraping.

Turcite: I do not have much personal experience with it. I remember Richard recommending to use a Biax power flaker blade with the front edge ground to between -12° and -20°. The rounded bottom of the blade is supposed to help getting the best pockets (which should be approximately 0.002-0.003 in deep (yes, thousands: no zeros missing, approximately 10x deeper than in cast iron).

First priority, on my opinion is to work on your technique in order to achieve consistent deeper scraping marks. And a few small gouges, especially i you round the edges, should not be an issue.

Paolo

 

[ripperj]

Interesting, thanks for posting and the video. I suspect I’ll be in the same boat at some point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Ianagos]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

On the replacing the machine I am really considering that but by the time I figure in rigging and finding a new machine I may aswell fix this one. There is a similar machine on eBay right not but who is to say it does not have similar problems. In the long run the plan is to replace this machine. But currently that is not in the cards as when I next replace it I either want to move to a Fadal 6535 or a doosan 6700l.
I do like the fadals because for half the price of the doosan I can have a 5 axis fadal on my floor.

The reason it’s not in the cards is because I’m getting quotes to get a new turning center right now so it’s one or the other.

By the way I’m looking for a 2005 or so or newer Mazak msy machine if anybody has one for sale.

On to the scraping I may go purchase one of those long neck angle grinders. I saw them but I felt like they were too long and would be awkward to use. But I don’t know till I try.

I’m still not sure if I will actually do this to the way surfaces. I know I need to drop about a thousand for the low areas. That seems like it will be quite the challenge.

Also i have only 2 straight edges a 36” one and a 48” one both are quite narrow as they are granite. The 36” one has seen better day while the 48” one is grade a +-.00005 along its length. I may need to acquire a cast iron straight edge with a wider foot first. But then that becomes its own project.

I will be removing the table and saddle here in a couple days. I’m just trying to make room in my extremely tight shop to put things like the 14foot long chip conveyer...
These thing are very heavy and I’m by my self in the shop the majority of the time. The shop is also a mess....

If I move all the junk I can drive my forklift in but it don’t got power steering so that’s always a joy. Then I need to figure out how to stage it so I can easily place and replace the table and saddle in the machine. Anybody around Atlanta up for a project? I can supl. beer.

For those giving me pointers on the scraping I appreciate it I thought about making the low spot my zero right after I made the video and have been doing that. That way I just know how far I have to go. Also Thankyou for the correction I do not fully understand the terminology and I did not realize what one pass meant.

Where is the best source of turcite/rulon and glue for me to get this job done? I do not like the idea of kits for the fadal because I’d like to have some extra to learn on and maybe reface any gibs.

Lastly for my blabbering I am going to order a scraper and a blade from dapra does anyone think I should not or is willing to sell me a used set? Also carbide grinder anyone got one?

 

[Ianagos]

Today I started taking some measurements. I had a lot of trouble getting the base level because depending where I place the level I get a different reading. I used my granite square on the z axis ways to determine the front to back tilt but that will still need to be checked again once the table and saddle are off.

Here are where I started measuring the box way thickness.

The measurement are within .0005”


Here is my small straight edge. I wanted to see if Fadal was kind enough to relieve the center and they were there is .020” clearance or so.

I haven’t gotten to measuring the ways on the other side but I know things are funky all over. As I move my level around it will change several deviations.

I almost have enough junk out of the way to get the scissor lift table in and then the forklift it gonna be tight though.

It was a bear to get that chip conveyer moved.

 

[Ianagos]

So I decided to try to measure the flatness of the y axis ways as she rides. I’m not sure what is going on but seem like it’s high in the middle? That’s the last thing I expected honestly. Ways are leveled decently but there are no good flat reference surfaces available.

Here is a video I made showing this


Fadal y axis straightness. - YouTube

Please note the table is not flat due to the missing turcite so I actually shimmed it to where each end reads zero.

Also I checked my straight edge against my surface plate and it’s within .0002” so it’s not that the straight edge is warped like crazy.

 

[Garwood]

If I were in your shoes I would not do any work to those ways. If I couldn't afford to replace the machine and had the time to do it I would pull the table and repair the Turcite. Verify lube system is working OK. Reassemble it all and run it.

If you had .005" of wear on the ways then you probably couldn't get away with that, but .0005" is pretty negligible for your situation there.

I mean seriously, you upgrade next year and go to sell this thing what do you think the buyer wants to here?

"I learned to hand scrape hard ways with a die grinder and fit Turcite with this machine"

OR

"The Y axis ways have 5 tenths of wear in the middle and I properly fitted new Turcite last year"

 

[Ianagos]

Well what you just said is what I’m thinking.

I recently saw a decent machine to replace this machine but I don’t want to scrap the machine. So I’m going to re do the turcite and put it up for sale. The new owner will get a machine that will probably last another 15 years if maintained but might not be the most accurate machine out there. And I get to switch over to a machine with 28” z travel for my rotary.

 

[Paolo_MD]

Interpreting an indirect measurement like the one you did is a bit tricky. The simplest explanation is that you have more wear at the ends of the ways (either turcite or harden ways, or both) than in the middle. Perhaps, speaking still about indirect measurements, you'd be better off measuring with a precision level how much the table is tilting over the travel.

I agree that, likely, your best option would be to replace and scrape-in the turcite, not touching the hardened ways, if we're talking of less than a thousand.

However, I suggest measuring the flatness of the hardened ways once you remove the table. Perhaps, relieving a little bit in the middle, maintaining the geometry, is where you get the most benefits.

Paolo

 

[Ianagos]

That measurement was confusing because I know the middle of the ways is worn and the ends are almost completely unworn with no scoring and still original finish. The plan now is to replace the turcite. I ordered up enough rulon 142 to do the job and that stuff was very expensive. Almost $500. Soon the table and saddle are coming off but I may be purchasing a new machine soon aswell.

 

[Ianagos]

As an update here I hit the table off today. No major issue it came off easily.

One gib has the turcite peeling but all the other are fine. I may returcite and scrape. Or I may just purchase new ones.

No space in my shop. It’s cramped in there with the forklift and the scissor lift table.

Not quite sure how I will remove the saddle as it’s too wide to come out the front door.

I could just flip it in place and set it down.