Fadal turcite/way reconditioning- how far should I go?

[Dbsharp]

Hi all,
Looking for opinions on how much I should try to fix on my new to me 1989 4020. I have the machine sheet metal off, and mostly apart, so it is a good time to go through everything and get it up to par. I would not be afraid to go at the ways with a grinder, as others have done, to make this machine more accurate, but don't have the tools or experience at the moment. A turcite job would be relatively easy at this point and within the "fixin budget" I have so I think I will probably do that at the least.

I'm not really sure how much I should invest into this old machine, or how fast I would "outgrow" it. My business is mainly engineering but I do love making things and try to keep that at least 25% of my business, I have a small shop with a couple other small cncs and prototyping tools. I have current projects that could absolutely benefit from having a 5 axis table, so I think that may be one motivator to get another machine in the shop in the future.

The current condition of X and Y:

• The Y ways look pretty clean, I haven't peeked at the turcite yet. I measure a deviation of .0012" (right side) and .0027" (left) in the box thickness
• X ways look a bit rough, corrosion in the middle, and gouging at the ends and I measure a deviation of .0028" (back side) and .0013" (front) in the box thickness. The turcite I can see isn't great, and one side has a chunk missing, but isn't worn too thin and seems to be still attached. There are embedded chips I can see on one corner.
• Indicating off the table in more than a dozen spots after leveling, I have only .004" difference across x, and .001" in y at worst. The X and Y also ballscrew show very little backlash in the nut. I think this seems to be a good sign that the table had good oil delivery and wore relatively evenly over its life (compared to other people's fadals). The table has some .005"+ deep corrosion pitting under where they had 3 vices on the table so I would not be afraid to resurface it, if that's a good idea...

For the Z axis, I am concerned that there was an oil delivery issue and will swing it out from the column later today and inspect the turcite. The oil line was not connected properly when I got it, appears a bit too short and the inlet fitting to the dist. block on the Z has been abused. There is .004" backlash in the ballnut alone, and the gap between the way, and the head casting is very small leading me to think there might not be much turcite left. When pumping the bijur by hand, oil flows out of the z ways very quickly, and in high volume compared to all other areas I can see. otherwise, I saw a small amount of fresh oil on the x ways but thats it! None detectable on any ballscrew or y axis ways (just a small bit of old dirty oil that was a near grease like consistency), and I pumped it quite a few times leaving a 8" dia. puddle on the floor from the z axis ways. I will be replacing the dis. blocks and plastic lines at a minimum.












-the number on the table in the last photo were from indicating it prior to leveling, I saw about .001 improvement on both sides of table once level.

 

[MCritchley]

It’s always amazing the amount of wear some machines can live under and still make parts.

Your mill is quite worn, the turcite is shot. There is no easy fix. Plenty of threads here that should cover what you need to do.

Seeing these photos is a good reminder to pull way covers back on an annual basis and that a buyer should demand to pull the covers back before a machine purchase.

Kitamura Mycenter Head Way Turcite Repair

For the last few days I have been rebuilding or repairing the Z headstock ways on a Kitamura Mycenter VMC. The owner operator Jay Simon of J.V. Machine Company - Part Production | Elko, MN a 2 man shop called me and asked if I was still rebuilding as I re-Ruloned another of his Kitamura's...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[Dbsharp]

It’s always amazing the amount of wear some machines can live under and still make parts.

Your mill is quite worn, the turcite is shot. There is no easy fix. Plenty of threads here that should cover what you need to do.

Seeing these photos is a good reminder to pull way covers back on an annual basis and that a buyer should demand to pull the covers back before a machine purchase.

Kitamura Mycenter Head Way Turcite Repair

For the last few days I have been rebuilding or repairing the Z headstock ways on a Kitamura Mycenter VMC. The owner operator Jay Simon of J.V. Machine Company - Part Production | Elko, MN a 2 man shop called me and asked if I was still rebuilding as I re-Ruloned another of his Kitamura's...

www.practicalmachinist.com

Good point on maintenance. People should treat things properly. I got the machine for next to nothing, and kind of expected to be doing turcite so I'm not complaining.

 

[Garwood]

Boy that is rough.

This is a business? Or you are a wealthy retired machine rebuilder with nothing better to do?

Business decision would be call the scrap guy and buy a good used vmc made in this century.

If your time has no value then rebuild a 34 year old entry level cnc.

 

[Dbsharp]

Boy that is rough.

This is a business? Or you are a wealthy retired machine rebuilder with nothing better to do?

Business decision would be call the scrap guy and buy a good used vmc made in this century.

If your time has no value then rebuild a 34 year old entry level cnc.

You're not wrong, I should probably just do the bare minimum to get it running and replace it with something much better when I can. To be honest I have always kind of wanted to try my hand at scraping and this would be really more to satisfy that intellectual curiosity and challenge.

 

[Garwood]

You're not wrong, I should probably just do the bare minimum to get it running and replace it with something much better when I can. To be honest I have always kind of wanted to try my hand at scraping and this would be really more to satisfy that intellectual curiosity and challenge.

I know how to scrape. Never used it. Never had a situation where a machine needing it was worth fixing. Basically, anything neglected enough to need scraping has always been shitty all around. If I need something small scraped in I will pay a pro I know.

On that point- how much is a good/nice older vmc? $5k to $10k? How much do you need to work to save that? A few weeks or maybe a couple months?

 

[RC Mech]

I’d clean it up and do new Turcite and new gib straps, maybe go with the new Turcite straps ITS CNC and others have. Definitely not whole-hog but with the enclosures off you’re kinda already there.

Do the ball screw thrust bearings on all axes, clean out the oil manifolds, replace the no doubt hazed door windows and add some real interior lighting. The machine will do anything you want it to do within its original capabilities with those mechanical parts replaced.

I hope you have a good (15 CFM @ 120 psi minimum) quiet compressor to run this thing. You can brew a pot of coffee in the time they take to change tools and it’s total spindle air purge the entire time.

 

[Dbsharp]

Garwood:
I think any of these in this price range are going to have a good chance of having similar issues and will have a lot of age and wear. I do know of one that going to be for sale that is in very good condition with 5th axis + all the bells and whistles, but the price is reflective of this and I'm not quite on steady enough ground to dump that much cash at this moment.

RC Mech:
Geeze that's a lot of air, but I at least have a nice air compressor that can handle it. Everything you have listed is on the to do list.

There are a few things going for me here. I floated the head out from the machine and the Z axis turcite and gibs looks very good, I have cleaned everything and will be reassembling today. The X and Y axis ballscrews seem nice and tight with pretty minimal backlash. I'm honestly not convinced that my measurement of the box height is a reliable way to measure the wear on the top face, but more of an indicator that it should be looked at.

 

[Garwood]

Garwood:
I think any of these in this price range are going to have a good chance of having similar issues and will have a lot of age and wear.

Where do you get that idea? The only machines out there with Turcite problems are Fadals. Period.

It's a shitty Fadal problem, not an old/used hard problem.

 

[Dbsharp]

Where do you get that idea? The only machines out there with Turcite problems are Fadals. Period.

It's a shitty Fadal problem, not an old/used hard problem.

Tell that to the shop up the road who had the turcite fall out of their Doosan. Any machine can be susceptible to damage if there is an isse with oil or lubrication, whether it be by negligence, failure, or poor design.

 

[Garwood]

Tell that to the shop up the road who had the turcite fall out of their Doosan. Any machine can be susceptible to damage if there is an isse with oil or lubrication, whether it be by negligence, failure, or poor design.

Agreed. I've seen a Miyano lose a lube line and need one pieces of turcite. Then I've seen a bunch of Fadals need it.

 

[Screwmachine]

I was thinking there was a fellow on here that posted his progress of refurbishing a clapped out Fadal.

You must be thinking of Aarongough.

Video: My restoration of a pair of Fadal VMC15s...

Hey guys! Figured this would be the right place for this video! Last year I spent a couple of hundred hours restoring a pair of Fadal VMC15s. I filmed the whole process and have been meaning to make a video out of it, but I've just been swamped so never got the chance. It is finally done though...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[Dbsharp]

This is the Thread I was thinking of.

Thread 'Fadal turcite replacement and regrind.' https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/fadal-turcite-replacement-and-regrind.381704/

I have met him a couple times, and actually I think I am probably going to pay him to machine the new turcite once I have it installed since he is not too far away for a day trip.

 

[Richard King]

I don't have a lot of going on in December. If you decide to repair it and want to pay my expenses and labor rate, I could come and show you how to do it. I could bring the tools. We just got 6" of snow today and it's 25 F out. A little heat in December would be nice. Do you have a overhead hoist or a fork lift? If your using it now or what tolerances do you expect ? If it's low or say .002" or .003" then you could just replace to bad Turcite and scrape it to the worn ways. If you want it better then that then we would need to grind the ways and then install the new Turcite and scrape it. I did a job like yours a few years ago.

I helped dismantle the machine and we sent the saddle and table to a Grinding shop. I went home and 2 weeks later I went back and we finished the job. I taught them how to do it and they helped scrape it.. Then they bought some tools from me and the next machine they did it themselves. A guesstimate On removing the Turcite and gluing on new and scraping it with your help . No grinding would be 50 to 60 hours if you have a overheard hoist. Scraping tools and supplies would cost approx. $2500.00 to $5000.00 I would tell you to Buy Rulon 142 and a estimate it would cost $500.00 to 600.00. If i remember it's .062" thick. Do you have a granite or cast iron surface plate?

Twice that much if you wanted to hand grind the ways. If you want my hourly rate, message me. If you sent the worn ways out to a pro to grind, I would estimate that would cost you $5000.00. You could contact these guys who have a way grinder and are one of the USA Premier rebuilders http://www.schmiedecorp.com/services/rebuild-retrofit-remanufacture/ You would pay for new Bijur lube fitting, tubing, the Turcite, the epoxy, do all the cleaning, etc. Plus my expenses. If you wanted to just replace and scrape the Turcite I would work the weekend. Or you could attend one of my Scraping classes first up here in MN and go home and I could advise you and do the work yourself. Like the guy did in the other PM thread. He and I talked on the phone and on here. I'm thinking of doing one in December or January. Another ide would you could host a scraping class and we could rebuild your machine in the class.

 

[Dbsharp]

I don't have a lot of going on in December. If you decide to repair it and want to pay my expenses and labor rate, I could come and show you how to do it. I could bring the tools. We just got 6" of snow today and it's 25 F out. A little heat in December would be nice. Do you have a overhead hoist or a fork lift? If your using it now or what tolerances do you expect ? If it's low or say .002" or .003" then you could just replace to bad Turcite and scrape it to the worn ways. If you want it better then that then we would need to grind the ways and then install the new Turcite and scrape it. I did a job like yours a few years ago.

I helped dismantle the machine and we sent the saddle and table to a Grinding shop. I went home and 2 weeks later I went back and we finished the job. I taught them how to do it and they helped scrape it.. Then they bought some tools from me and the next machine they did it themselves. A guesstimate On removing the Turcite and gluing on new and scraping it with your help . No grinding would be 50 to 60 hours if you have a overheard hoist. Scraping tools and supplies would cost approx. $2500.00 to $5000.00 I would tell you to Buy Rulon 142 and a estimate it would cost $500.00 to 600.00. If i remember it's .062" thick. Do you have a granite or cast iron surface plate?

Twice that much if you wanted to hand grind the ways. If you want my hourly rate, message me. If you sent the worn ways out to a pro to grind, I would estimate that would cost you $5000.00. You could contact these guys who have a way grinder and are one of the USA Premier rebuilders http://www.schmiedecorp.com/services/rebuild-retrofit-remanufacture/ You would pay for new Bijur lube fitting, tubing, the Turcite, the epoxy, do all the cleaning, etc. Plus my expenses. If you wanted to just replace and scrape the Turcite I would work the weekend. Or you could attend one of my Scraping classes first up here in MN and go home and I could advise you and do the work yourself. Like the guy did in the other PM thread. He and I talked on the phone and on here. I'm thinking of doing one in December or January. Another ide would you could host a scraping class and we could rebuild your machine in the class.

Richard, thanks for the reply. I am leaning towards using this machine for a while and then replacing it with something better/faster. I suspect it will hold a good enough tolerance for my immediate needs.

 

[MCritchley]

Where do you get that idea? The only machines out there with Turcite problems are Fadals. Period.

It's a shitty Fadal problem, not an old/used hard problem.

What? Your crazy!
There is a long list of builders with turcite issues. Most builders have had a slideway let go and accordion out from under the table.
I’ve met one guy that actually pins the turcite in with Teflon dowels. He fixed many factory screwups.

 

[Richard King]

I've pinned them with Nylon or used brass and punched some holes in the Turcite so the epoxy acts as a pin. Kitamura also did a lousy job gluing on Turcite as you can see in the link Matt shared earlier. I would say I have repaired 1 to 1 of them. 5 or 6 of each over the years.

 

[Dbsharp]

I have no doubt about the experience and knowledge that Richard would provide, and if this was a machine worth the cost I would go for it. As much as I would love to take on the learning experience from a pro, I can't justify that kind of cost to learn a skill that ultimately is unlikely to produce a significant return with my business model or even be used in the future on a regular basis.

 

[BT Fabrication]

I have no doubt about the experience and knowledge that Richard would provide, and if this was a machine worth the cost I would go for it. As much as I would love to take on the learning experience from a pro, I can't justify that kind of cost to learn a skill that ultimately is unlikely to produce a significant return with my business model or even be used in the future on a regular basis.

rebuilding a $5000 machine is always going to cost way more then the purchase price. Hard part after is finding someone to pay more then the going rate even if it is perfect and factory like specs.
although if you had a couple grand to put into it, id be taking his class, then replacing the turcite and learning how to scrape it back in as the most economical way to fix it.
the other thing is that free play is different then ball screw wear. mine has zero free play but had 0.011" wear in the screws before the table started moving the opposite way in X and about 0.0032 in Y. At that point its all new ball screws for $3000 ish per axis

 

[Richard King]

Thank you GWilley. I will be teaching a class in Rockford at Bourn and Koch - one of the greatest machine builder left in the USA in March. I'll be posting about it in the Reconditioning forum soon.