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Fehlmann Picomax CNC 51 ("HVBV" relay, documentations)

Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Hello all,
I have a Picomax 51 CNC3 machine, but I've bought it in not working condition, now trying to repair it. Actually there was a lot of different problems which I have solved already, but there is one more problem related to the hardware - it seems that one of Fehlemann's orange relays is missing ( besides 2 other usual relays which are missing on my photo).
First problem - I don't know what type of relay should be there? According to the pictures from the internet it seems that I do not have "HVBV" type
Is there a chance that somebody who has similar machine or relay itself, can make a photo of this relay - what is inside from both sides, I wish to try to make it's "replica".
Second question - does anybody has any documentation on this machine ? Any information will be welcomed!
From my side, i've learned a lot about this machine from techical side, if somebody will have some question - it could be I will be able to answer it :)
 

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Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
I doubt they will provide me photos of orange boxes content :)
Btw they have sent me a user manual on this machine, but it does not include any electrical description.
 

jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
this particular one is a bit more complex than the others, here are couple pics, full resolution ones are on the google drive link here: more and full res pics
unfortunately I don't have the electrical diagrams for mine, so can't tell you what it does, those are T1C263N triacs on the output if the pic on the google drive is difficult to read
20220518_233605.jpg20220518_233623.jpg20220518_235627.jpg

p.s. my machine is fully functional, no missing relays, but it is just X/Y cnc controlled axis (manual quill), perhaps that is why mine seems to miss a relay compared to yours, might be Z servo control related

and post here if you're up to fully reverse engineer it (AND post it here after), I can desolder the relay and the transformers so the tracks are easier to figure out
 
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jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
I uploaded more photos to the google drive folder, I also made a quick schematic and pcb layout using easyeda, capacitor, transistor, thyristor and varistor names are correct, so are the transformers, but resistors must be identified from the photos

shcematic needs more work to make it readable, but from the looks of it, it most likely is the control board for lowering and rising the head, there is a 3 phase motor there, and the relay on this board is for selecting phase rotation order and power the motor via thyristors

link to easyeda project: https://oshwlab.com/janisz79/fehlmann-hvbv-m-y-1990aprox_copy
and schematic and pcb PDFs just in case:
 

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Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Dear jz79
This is just amazing! Huge thank you again! I will reformat schematic for better readability (i'm busy on it right now)
In the past I did reverse-engineering of DC motors drivers (X Y Z axises), I spend some weeks to do it.. If you want I can share it.
 

jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Desoldering station is this one - https://www.tme.eu/en/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/ , it is a bit fiddly, had to adjust fit of the collector cylinder on the gun so it is easier to remove for cleaning, and there is a tendency for a plug to form from the solder sticking at the cool end of the heater tube that goes into the collection cylinder, I shortened it and made a slightly better gasket there, and the problem went away
It works well even for 4+ layer boards with solid power and ground planes, but the more modern soldering joints need rewetting with a lead containing solder first, else that lead free solder doesn't want to flow out of the joint
Proper technique is important when using these, you touch the tip on the joint, melt it, then wiggle around to feel the leg of the part moving in the hole and simultaneously apply vacuum, keep wiggling the leg in the hole and pull the gun away keeping the vacuum on, even a dip14 sockets like seen here (and these sockets had those thick solid round pins for legs) almost fall out by themselves when done correctly, thought this particular board had really small holes in the board and was fighting back a bit, but still way easier with this desoldering station than trying to do the same thing with one of those handheld piston pumps

well worth the 100eur price tag, even for someone like me who uses it maybe couple times a month
 

Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Schematic is ready. Now I will identify resistors values.
 

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jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
if you kept the resistor names, then you can take a look at my schematic shared previously, I started cleaning it up and added resistor values also
 

Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Yes, I followed your designators just to do not create additional mess.
I discovered that contact "5" is conneted to the wire "232" which is connected to E25 input of PLC, and it is named "height adjustment down".
Contact "7" is connected to the wire "233", and this is PLC input E24, named "height adjustment up".
Contact "6" i think is going somwhere on the head of machine, but between this contact and PLC input E30 there is measured resistance around 50 Ohms. E30 input named "Fuse, machine head SS", so most probably this contact means something about fault condition
 

jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
the head is clamped on the column, I'm not sure if it is the hydraulic pressure or a spring stack that is doing the holding, but there must be a solenoid there somewhere to release the clamping to allow the head to move
 

Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Schematic with resistors and capacitors values.
Column clamp is drived by another orange box. In my machine clamp is working, but motor is not moving, that's why i suspected this orange box, and as I see now - it's clear why :)
This box, as I see, is turning on/off motor of column with reverse ( Up and Down ). I thought it migh be soft start for the motor, but actually it is not, just 3 phases switch with reverse ( relay is responsible for the direction, and triacs are simple switch ). Most of opamps, as I see, are responsible for a logic and N2.2 ( output "1") is generating ~1kHz meander for transformers. Transformers are just for isolation purpose.
 

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Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Just for curiosity I decided to extract schematic from another orange box - HDEC, maybe it will help to somebody in the future.

Also, I found where it is connected - to the PLC board, to the "handbox" inputs. It looks like this is serial-to-parallel data converter.
 

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Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
Stromag cha055, same as your ( i found your pcb. schematic in the past), it is also not working, i'm in process of repairing it. Thanks for your PCB reverse-engineering I'm extracting its schematic, intermediate result in attachment, but it is not complete yet.
 

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jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
looks like you have quite a "project" there...
the problem I had with my drive was that the transformer on the bottom board shorted out injecting 220V AC into the +/-15V power supply circuit for the ICs, I ended up replacing all of them, it was couple years ago and I remember having problems sourcing some of the old 4000 series ICs

in case yours is too far gone, here is a link to German company (I think someone mentioned that company somewhere on this forum, but I can't remember who or the topic any more) that makes a very similar drive - https://www.unitek-industrie-elektronik.de/thyristor-q1 , I don't know the cost though
 

Jenkins

Plastic
Joined
May 15, 2022
In my case +-15V are already fine ( after replacing capacitors ). When i'm enabling spindle it is turning on and going to the maximum possible speed for the motor itself without any limitation and not reacting to any change of speed settings. Also it is rizing error on the screen. This is not so easy problem, that's why i started discovering its schematic ( actually I continue your work ) to be able to understand better how it is working, to understand what is wrong.
 

jz79

Stainless
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
good luck with that, I'd get one of those 4000/7400 IC testers from ebay or make one using an arduino, ready made sketches are already out there, manually testing each IC for correct operation would be very tedious even with full schematic

I decided to replace them all after finding couple bad gates on few chips, few were short, some were open and wouldn't operate correctly etc
 








 
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