Folks I need a saw- Cold or Miterband?

[Trboatworks]

I have been pulling in more general fabrication jobs in my marine industry shop so I am finally going to up my game for cutting stock,
I don't do production so my needs are more along the lines of a flexible saw which can switch hit over different stock and materials.
Aluminum and stainless tube, solids and extrusions of all the typical types out to about 3-4".

So I assumed I was heading for a cold saw until I was reading this thread and started thinking the Miter Bandsaws may be a better choice.

Advice wanted on a cold saw for an Engineering workshop

At my employer we have a reasonably equipped Engineering machine shop. It has your typical manual mills, lathes, drill presses, saws, sheet metal equipment, TIG welder and similar. This is a prototype shop used by the engineers for building and modifying and does not have a dedicated machinist...

www.practicalmachinist.com

I need-
Smallish footprint.
I'd like clean to run and fairly quiet.
I don't want to blow far past $2000 so that puts me in the used cold saw or a bench top bandsaw.

I guess my question is which platform switch hits the best for a small shop?
I'd like as flexible stock positioning as possible for odd cuts in tube/extrusions as well as the ability to chew through a 3" solid in stainless on occasion.

I have a 14" and a 16" vertical bandsaws in the shop now.
Both are antiques and both have gear boxes which I don't generally use.
I have the 14" setup with a Lenox diemaster while the 16" has a carbide tooth Tri-master- I use both for cutting aluminum flat stock and use a chop saw with alloy blade for aluminum sections.
I guess in theory I could start using the bandsaws I have for long sticks of material and get a vice setup going but miters are not going to happen as I don't have the room in the shop.

On cold vs miter bands - it is looking like the bandsaw wins for flexibility by stint of being able to lay the head over so that opens up far more cuts than the simple vise swing on a cold saw.
I guess this thread is "if you had to pick one"...

So-
For the bandsaw I am looking at gear like this:

EV 91DMHV Portable, Double Miter, Horizontal/Vertical KAMA Bandsaw - Kama Bandsaws, Bandsaws from Elderfield & Hall

The EV 91DMHV KAMA Bandsaw gives you everything you need for cutting anything in your shop! Need to sever a piece of material? NO PROBLEM, the EV 91DMHV will cut any piece of steel, stainless steel, aluminum, plastic or wood UP TO 6 INCHES IN DIAMETER! Need to cut a pattern? NO PROBLEM, simply...

kamabandsaw.com

Or to blow my budget this (or any one of the other saws from Hem at lower price points):

ABS-1750XL

Check out our ABS-1750XL stationary benchtop band saw. Compare standard and optional features. Request a quote for pricing. Replacement parts also available.

www.hemsaw.com

For the cold saw a used unit in one of the flavors of better quality manual 250-300 mm saws with coolant.

I do have a whole stack of new blades for this 14" chop saw I picked up at auction- in a pinch I could buy the saw and roll with this but think that saw would annoy the crap out of me..:

Evolution S355MCS: Mitering Chop Saw With 14 In. Mild Steel Blade | Heavy Duty | Metal Cutting

About this item Built for professionals, the S355MCS Mitering Chop Saw from Evolution is the first 14” TCT industrial Chop Saw that allows you to produce accurate miter cuts without having to reposition the workpiece. Designed to tackle heavy cuts in oversized metal pieces the S355MCS Mitering...

store.evolutionpowertools.com

I have a tiny shop so a real mitering bandsaw out in open floor space to bring long sticks to is not going to happen.
So smallish units on a stand.
What I will have to deal with is stock over bench level of my assembly table and the table saw- roll around cart wouldn't hurt.

What do you think?

 

[Scruffy887]

The Evo is a cold dry saw, carbide blades and highish rpms. I had a column type double miter cold saw with auto feed. Bought brand new and 3 years later dumped it with the original blade still on and sharp. It just never fit in my operation. The saw I use a lot is a double miter swivel table band saw. I have a MQL unit on it that spits the tiniest amount of lube on the blade. If the compressor is running, often it is not. Blade life is about half or less from a full flood saw.
I cut ALL welding fab stuff dry. Hyde Mech H-14A dual column or the miter band, fab stuff cut dry. Keeps my floor dry, welding table dry, gloves dry, smell less. Makes cleanup before paint easier too.
I also have a Hyde Mech 10" bench top type cold saw. It has flood coolant on it too. At least 10 years old. Original blade on it and still sharp. And a Mikata cold dry saw too. Maybe used a few times 5 years ago.

 

[Trboatworks]

All my metal work is headed for tig welding- high polish 316 and the normal run of 6061 plus the bright anodized work.

If you had to have just the BS or the cold saw- which would you pick?

I am thinking a cold saw positioned in a corner (where the big welder is now which is going out the door) plus a miter bs on long wall for cuts from sticks would be a nice setup- I would get the smaller lengths and solids on the cold saw.
Right now I don't want to buy both..

My current setup using the wood miter saws for aluminum with alloy blades on them is actually fine- its the steel work I need to up my game on.
I have reached my limit of using cut disks and tube cutters.

That Hyde Mech H-14A is way past the class of machine I will ever have in this shop of mine.

Looking at that Hem saw above, I think I may kick myself every time I need to do a mirror compound miter on some stock.
Dual miter saws chase right out of my price bracket.

 

[EmanuelGoldstein]

I have been pulling in more general fabrication jobs in my marine industry shop so I am finally going to up my game for cutting stock,

I don't know if you can find something like this used ? I can't imagine they'd be cheap but think of what you could do ....

https://files.catbox.moe/qkhfst.mp4

 

[Trboatworks]

I don't know if you can find something like this used ? I can't imagine they'd be cheap but think of what you could do ....

https://files.catbox.moe/qkhfst.mp4

Hmmmm.

I was reading some Adam Smith on the value of production in shops- I am the first case he uses where artisan/craft work dominates...
My shop is sort of retro- think 1944 but away from enough work to warrant production setups.

 

[EmanuelGoldstein]

Hmmmm.

I was reading some Adam Smith on the value of production in shops- I am the first case he uses where artisan/craft work dominates...
My shop is sort of retro- think 1944 but away from enough work to warrant production setups.

That's not production tho ... think of the bow pulpits, stern railings, bimini frames, fiddle rails .... just tell it the lengths and angles then even I could weld the tubes up ! (If you bought me one a them laser welders anyway. Otherwise, you'd lose all your customers. You have no idea how bad I can weld )

 

[Trboatworks]

Moss- we need to bring you down to earth- I could dump one of the vertical saws and set this in the shop:

Ellis 1600 Dual Mitering Head Band Saw

Save BIG on the Ellis 1600 band saw. Popular for its dual mitering capability, extremely large cutting capacity, and rugged durability.

www.trick-tools.com

 

[EmanuelGoldstein]

Moss- we need to bring you down to earth-

Oh no you don't. I ain't goin there and ya can't make me!

I admit, didn't think you were really going to go for the tube laser. But wouldn't it be cool for doing boat work?

If I had to be practical tho, I'd say cold saw over bandsaw. Bandsaws are really kind of a kluge, compared to a cold saw. For your size stuff and all that, I don't mean for big angle iron and so on.

Heck, you could get away with a power hack, those don't cost anything and they'd do your solids and tube fine and you can miter with them same as a bandsaw ... but. Cold saw, Much nicer.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Cold saw.......once we got it we sold the horiz bandsaw.
Dead straight cuts, very smooth finish, miters.
Now, one blade does not do all, blades are not that expensive, we keep about 5 different ones.
Remember a cold saw is actually milling.
Fine teeth for thin wall, less for solids. Different tooth grinds for stainless etc.
lots of places sell blades, and you do re-sharpen.
Majority of our stock cut on the cold saw does not need any further finishing, at the most a quick deburr of the edge.
Like you, the saw could see 6061, stainless and carbon all in one day.
You must use coolant so pay attention to the base etc. otherwise you get a mess

If you can find a column head cold saw go for it. We have a Kmt, the older version of the new 370 kmtsaw.com

 

[projectnut]

First off be sure to understand the difference between a "dry cut saw" and a true "cold saw. Dry cut saws (also advertised as cold saws) are similar to chop saws in that they typically run between 1,000 rpm and 3,000 rpm. While they do run cooler than a chop saw they aren't as cool or as accurate as a true cold saw. A true cold saw usually runs between 25 and 150 rpm and uses coolant to lubricate and cool the stock and blade as well as flush the swarf from the kerf.

A true cold saw is fine if you're consistently cutting multiple same length pieces of the same material. They are a little more expensive and time consuming to run if you are regularly cutting different lengths or different material. Variable lengths are less of a problem if you have an outfeed conveyor or a stand to support the cut material. Different materials or different sizes of the same material require different blades. For instance, the same blade shouldn't be used to cut 1" x 1" aluminum and 4" round aluminum. The 1" flat stock requires a blade with 170 teeth while the 4" round stock requires a blade with only 80 teeth.
Cutting steel requires a blade with a different tooth grind cutting than the one used for aluminum. The rules of thumb are similar to blades used in a bandsaw. There is a minimum number of teeth to be engaged to prevent a tooth from catching and breaking off, and a maximum number to be engaged to prevent loading the teeth and potentially binding the blade.

In my opinion the best all-around saw is a horizontal bandsaw, preferably one that pivots the saw head rather than the vise. You'll still need different blades for different materials or different sizes of the same material, but the blades are generally less expensive. Bandsaw blades generally cost between $35.00 and $45.00 a copy. Cold saw blades generally run between $150.00 and $250.00 a copy. Bandsaw blades need to be replaced when they no longer cut well. Cold saw blades can be resharpened multiple times. Sharpening usually runs around $20.00 a blade, plus shipping if there isn't a shop that can do it near you.

I have a true cold saw, a horizontal bandsaw, a power hacksaw and a dry saw in my shop. The bandsaw is used on a daily basis. The cold saw is used a few times a week, the power hacksaw is used when the bandsaw is busy, and (now that I have a true cold saw) the dry cut saw rarely used. In fact, the dry cut saw hasn't been used in months.

 

[Trboatworks]

Dead straight cuts, very smooth finish, miters.

Remember a cold saw is actually milling.

Ok- that "is actually milling" is what my gut was telling me.

What is a 'column head' cold saw?
One thing that would be dead handy for me is to swing the head not the vise so I am not sweeping the whole shop with sticks of material.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Go look at kmtsaw.com and find the model 370.
The head in on ways with a gib. Can be adjusted for a slop free fit.
A lot of cold saws are like a woodworking miter saw, they work ok until the pivot gets sloppy, then the saw chatters, bucks etc and the finish goes away.
Swinging material.....the kmt does move the head, both left and right ,stock stays straight.
We use a 10' roller conveyor for the input side.
Output has the KMT table with stop arm .

 

[Trboatworks]

Thanks

 

[MwTech Inc]

You will give up speed, and the kerf is wider, but for us the quality of cut far outweighed those two things.
Ex: one job required hundreds of cuts in 1.5 sq carbon tubing 16ga at 54 degrees. Tubing was setup in jig and welded.
Nice tight fit, no wonky gaps, dead straight across.

 

[Ries]

both.
but if I had to have only one, it would be a bandsaw first.
A good coldsaw will run 6 grand, easy, new. And blades are $150 to $200 each these days.
Most coldsaws are 2 speed- and while you can get one thats 22/44 rpm, those are optimum speeds for stainless and mild, respectively, whereas an aluminum cold saw will run at 2000rpm and up.
A bandsaw uses cheaper blades, its easier and faster to change em, and it can cut everything.
"benchtop" bandsaws are usually bottom end machines. I have heard decent things about these kamas, but you get what you pay for.
I have a 350mm german cold saw, and 3 bandsaws, and an ironworker. plus the portaband and the plasma cutter. And usually one of will do the job.

EV 88 Portable Benchtop KAMA Bandsaw - Kama Bandsaws, Bandsaws from Elderfield & Hall

If space is an issue in your shop, but you still need good cutting capacity, the KAMA EV 88 is the machine for you. 6" cutting capacity in a machine less than 18" square! Of course it has the cutting precision you expect from a KAMA Precision Bandsaw.

kamabandsaw.com

 

[cyanidekid]

my needs are similar Tr, and I used a traditional horizontal (Milwaukee) bandsaw for decades, having to move the fence and set it at 45, reset it, realize I moved it the wrong way, tweak it again, repeat, then move stuff around to allow the stock to fit, etc. etc...but last year, I got a mitering head horizontal from a local cleanout, and I just can't believe I ever did without it.

It was truly frozen up with old coolant, it took me a week to get it freed up, but its fantastic. I just faced off a 1" part, and it was
square within about .003. the blades are more like 85$ though, but I use the same one for everything, 10-14 usually unless I'm cutting solids over 3", bi-metal of course.

It's Taiwan made I think, imported by a company in PA, branded "Accura" model 01079. they list at about 2600.

DON'T mess around, JUST GET IT!! accuramachinetools.com no affiliation, but seriously, don't waste a second deliberating.

 

[just Dave]

I have been pulling in more general fabrication jobs in my marine industry shop so I am finally going to up my game for cutting stock,
I don't do production so my needs are more along the lines of a flexible saw which can switch hit over different stock and materials.
Aluminum and stainless tube, solids and extrusions of all the typical types out to about 3-4".

So I assumed I was heading for a cold saw until I was reading this thread and started thinking the Miter Bandsaws may be a better choice.

Advice wanted on a cold saw for an Engineering workshop

At my employer we have a reasonably equipped Engineering machine shop. It has your typical manual mills, lathes, drill presses, saws, sheet metal equipment, TIG welder and similar. This is a prototype shop used by the engineers for building and modifying and does not have a dedicated machinist...

www.practicalmachinist.com

I need-
Smallish footprint.
I'd like clean to run and fairly quiet.
I don't want to blow far past $2000 so that puts me in the used cold saw or a bench top bandsaw.

I guess my question is which platform switch hits the best for a small shop?
I'd like as flexible stock positioning as possible for odd cuts in tube/extrusions as well as the ability to chew through a 3" solid in stainless on occasion.

I have a 14" and a 16" vertical bandsaws in the shop now.
Both are antiques and both have gear boxes which I don't generally use.
I have the 14" setup with a Lenox diemaster while the 16" has a carbide tooth Tri-master- I use both for cutting aluminum flat stock and use a chop saw with alloy blade for aluminum sections.
I guess in theory I could start using the bandsaws I have for long sticks of material and get a vice setup going but miters are not going to happen as I don't have the room in the shop.

On cold vs miter bands - it is looking like the bandsaw wins for flexibility by stint of being able to lay the head over so that opens up far more cuts than the simple vise swing on a cold saw.
I guess this thread is "if you had to pick one"...

So-
For the bandsaw I am looking at gear like this:

EV 91DMHV Portable, Double Miter, Horizontal/Vertical KAMA Bandsaw - Kama Bandsaws, Bandsaws from Elderfield & Hall

The EV 91DMHV KAMA Bandsaw gives you everything you need for cutting anything in your shop! Need to sever a piece of material? NO PROBLEM, the EV 91DMHV will cut any piece of steel, stainless steel, aluminum, plastic or wood UP TO 6 INCHES IN DIAMETER! Need to cut a pattern? NO PROBLEM, simply...

kamabandsaw.com

Or to blow my budget this (or any one of the other saws from Hem at lower price points):

ABS-1750XL

Check out our ABS-1750XL stationary benchtop band saw. Compare standard and optional features. Request a quote for pricing. Replacement parts also available.

www.hemsaw.com

For the cold saw a used unit in one of the flavors of better quality manual 250-300 mm saws with coolant.

I do have a whole stack of new blades for this 14" chop saw I picked up at auction- in a pinch I could buy the saw and roll with this but think that saw would annoy the crap out of me..:

Evolution S355MCS: Mitering Chop Saw With 14 In. Mild Steel Blade | Heavy Duty | Metal Cutting

About this item Built for professionals, the S355MCS Mitering Chop Saw from Evolution is the first 14” TCT industrial Chop Saw that allows you to produce accurate miter cuts without having to reposition the workpiece. Designed to tackle heavy cuts in oversized metal pieces the S355MCS Mitering...

store.evolutionpowertools.com

I have a tiny shop so a real mitering bandsaw out in open floor space to bring long sticks to is not going to happen.
So smallish units on a stand.
What I will have to deal with is stock over bench level of my assembly table and the table saw- roll around cart wouldn't hurt.

What do you think?

If you use only 1 saw you will need a couple different bandsaw blades. That little bandsaw looks ok but overpriced for a portaband on a stand. If you have big old vertical bandsaws you may already have some good cutters. Do they have table feed?

 

[Ultradog MN]

The old argument in the carpentry/framing trades is a miter saw vs a skill saw.
It's harder to bring the lumber to a miter saw than it is to bring a skill saw to the lumber. But the miter saw gives you cleaner, more accurate cuts.
I have a smallish shop and a largeish band saw. I put it on wheels. It just floats around the shop and doesn't have its own place to be stored. If I need to cut long lengths of something I can move it and run one end of the stock out the door. For short stuff I can use it wherever it happens to be.
Might not work for everyone but maybe something to consider.

 

[memphisjed]

Band saw, band saw, band saw.

Piece of oak or titanium or steel-same blade, same saw.

If you are almost all stainless/steel then a wet abrasive saw. They cut super clean and swing for mitering easily.

 

[cyanidekid]

I just almost maxed it out on these at 8.875, and they are nice, "no rock on the combo square" cuts.
I'd have no hesitation borrowing to purchase one now. no problem on stainless, but it does wear out the blades quicker for sure.
it also has a dovetail "slide" on the vise, which I didn't appreciate until using it. with that you can cut short pieces because the moving jaw doesn't pivot, and the fence behind supports the work on both sides of the cut.