Folks I need a saw- Cold or Miterband?

[Limy Sami]

The biggest snag with a band saw (IMHO&E) is getting a consistantley accurate cut, on some fab work a little ''gapology n getover'' doesn't matter but on things like boat handrails it sticks out like the bollox on bulldog

 

[MwTech Inc]

Just did a quick cut, blade has already seen lots of use.
304 1.250
Just to give you an idea... no deburring was done

 

[Trboatworks]

I just read this on from KMT on the cold saws:

"For tubes, pipes, light structurals. Hinge type machines are generally not considered production machines, but may be used in production under carefully considered applications."

I could have do a lot with that Ellis 1600.
I have stepped up the game a bit and am looking at this as well:

2200DA-XL

Benchtop Band Saws (2200DA-XL) are semi-automatic with an electric power source. 2.7 HP motor. Compare HE&M Saw's standard and optional features. Get a quote.

www.hemsaw.com

Still in the same place with cold saws- probably used as it appears good brands can be had for ~$2000 or so.

 

[Trboatworks]

both.

Yeah- that is starting to sound like where I am at.
I have a job coming in with lots of polished small angle in 316 to cut and weld up so would like to have something in the shop soon- fussy boat work so plastic liners on the vise etc.
I need a saw that will chop 90's and 45's etc clean and square so I can drop right over to the tig work without much more than a debur.
I have a small shop and its just me- one modest job at a time so I am not facing having gear I have to put employees on.

I did get my first injury in years recently chopping 45's on a short stick of .25" 6061 square tube on the miter saw with an alloy blade.
The blade grabbed the stock and sheared off half the teeth while driving a miter point into the heel of my hand- safety first eh- aluminum cuts so well it is easy to ignore that its not timber and when it grabs watch out.
A real clamp on a real saw would have saved some blood on the floor.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Well....let me back up a moment...your budget.

Thinkin a used cold saw vs a used bandsaw...

Your not doing production so a hinged unit (with a good pivot) would be just fine.
I'm just a bit skeptical about small bandsaws , so many fuss about how lousy they work/cut. ....just to light...
I think your chances of good cuts lean towards a cold saw, BUT.......
Just depends on your requirements for end finish, that's really the deciding factor here.
If your just chomping thru ,bandsaw.
If you want really nice finished square ends ready for use, cold.

 

[IceCzar]

I have a DeWalt high speed carbide coldsaw 1300rpm
At work a Slugger high speed carbide coldsaw 1300rpm (same difference)
I used to use a Scotchman HSS coldsaw 30-60 rpm
but this is what I covet (and almost bought and shipped used from Germany)

HABERLE Model H 90

HABERLE Model H 90 Haberle Cold Saws HABERLE Model H 90: HSS Saw Blade 14" Compound angel cuts, notching, angle cuts, slitting, for tubes, sections or channels of steel, stainless steel and nonferrous metals. Sawhead tilts 0° - 90°

www.millenniummach.com

 

[Rocketdc]

I started with a mitering bandsaw then added a kmt semi auto cold saw and ended up selling the bandsaw because I prefer the cold saw and am short on floor space.

For tubing a manual saw isn't too bad, but when you get into thicker solids having a powered downfeed is definitely nice to have! My shop is just south of you if you want to test out a cold saw and more importantly see what it feels like to manually pull the blade through solid stock...it gets old quickly if you have a lot of cuts to make. I've got some 3" HR square bar you can test cut or bring your own stock to cut.

 

[Trboatworks]

That H-90 is nice.
I have used compound miters for decades for wood- I will miss that if I can't get it in a metal saw.
One of my problems is that the parting gear I have on the lathe is weak so I also need basic cutting disks out of solid etc.
The cleaner the cut the better so save some facing work.

 

[Mud]

Band saw, band saw, band saw.

Piece of oak or titanium or steel-same blade, same saw.

If you are almost all stainless/steel then a wet abrasive saw. They cut super clean and swing for mitering easily.

My first saw long ago was the Wilton 4X6 Hor/Vert version of what is now usually seen made by Rong Fu or even cheaper chinese versions. Started a fab business using it, it cut a LOT of steel tubing and aluminum plate/bar. Have since bought a used DoAll vertical, new 12X9 horizontal, have a big chop saw and a DoAll C70 waiting to be comissioned and used, out in the warehouse. I bought a proper cold saw, rebuilt it and used it a little bit, it's now out in the warehouse in the hopes it will be needed for real some day. I'm now a machine shop, that little 4X6 Wilton is still in the shop 45 years later and get used frequently for small onesey twosey parts, just because it does what it does very well, and is more convenient than any of the other saws.
If I could find a good quality bandsaw to replace it, that was easier to set angles on and was waist height, I'd buy it. FWIW I hear the Rong-Fus are actually pretty good. Maybe get one of them cheap to try and then decide on a better saw.
Hope this helps.

 

[IceCzar]

while I've not personally used an H-90 I'd expect it to be a more versatile Scotchman unfortunately likely twice your budget if used here or with shipping in the EU.
Thing about "real" coldsaws they will sit down and hog out 2" bar stock all day long. Not something I'd ever try with the high speed carbides. But when I was working as a smith there were days I spent all day making post and balustrade starters (to be cold textured and hot worked)

 

[cyanidekid]

Tr,

If I could find a good quality bandsaw to replace it, that was easier to set angles on and was waist height, I'd buy it.

The saw I posted above is such. Exactly. Accura 01079.

I know I sound a bit like a salesman here, but I have nothing to gain.
I admit I’m a “convert” to these, but it was purely accidental. I wasn’t looking for one, but it was 3 blocks from me and about 350$ (and a weeks worth of cursing at it).

.005-.007” repeatability accurate (Once you tune it up),
10 seconds to convert from 90 to 45, 3 seconds to go back to 90. (There is a stop at 90, You could set a stop at 45, then it’s 3 seconds both ways).
Good working hight, nice cast iron body and head, variable speed dial, coolant sump and pump. The retailer backs them up reasonably well from my limited expierience.
Downside is the cost (well worth it in my opinion),
And the blade length is not stocked by some, but it’s really easy to get custom lengths from enough places that it’s not a problem.

 

[projectnut]

Another thing to keep in mind is that a cold saw in your budget range will need an operator the entire time it's in use. A bandsaw can be setup and started, then left to finish the cut by itself. Almost all saws on the market will shut down when the cut is finished.
I purchased a Baileigh CS-350 EU a little less than a year ago. At the time it was 11 years old and in rough shape. I've been looking for one for some time. This one fell into my lap for a mere $350.00. It needed a good cleaning, a few new parts, and a little paint. I have close to $800.00 in it with the majority of that going to new blades.

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of any saw, just giving information I've acquired having several types of saws in the shop. Attached are a few pictures of some of the saws in the shop.

The horizontal\al bandsaw is a Startrite H175 (7 x 12). I've had it over 20 years with the only expenses being blades and recently a gearbox seal. This saw has 3 speeds and is coolant capable. I use it dry with bimetal variable pitch blades. With almost daily use blades last between 2 and 3 years. It will cut +/- .005" all day long.

Next to it is a Racine W66 power hacksaw. It has 2 speeds, is coolant capable, and has a 6 x 6 capacity. The fastest speed on this saw is about equal to the slowest speed on the bandsaw at 60 fpm. Blades for this machine are cheap compared to the other saws. While they cost $9.00 to $25.00 from vendors like McMaster they can often be found on eBay and other sites for less than $5.00.

On the other side of the bandsaw is the Baileigh CS-350 EU. It uses a 350mm (14") blade. It has variable speed from 24rpm to 125 rpm. It is coolant capable, and in fact needs coolant to flush swarf and keep the blade and material cool. The head swings for mitering and can move up to 90* for slotting. It will cut +/- .002" all day long.

A caveat on this particular saw. It was purchased for a project as much as to bring another useful machine into the shop. I am extremely satisfied with the outcome. It took about 3 months of spare evening time to get it to the shop, disassemble it, repair and replace needed parts, paint, and reassemble. There are others on this board that haven't had as good a luck with this brand of machinery. This one was supposedly made in the US, but later models were built in Taiwan, and mainland China. There are several other brands on the market that appear to be identical and have a lower initial price tag.

Right now, the layout of the shop is in a state of flux. I need to find/make a good place for the cold saw and move the power hacksaw to a place where it's more accessible.

 

[MwTech Inc]

I never heard of a shop that wasn't in flux........to some degree

 

[Trboatworks]

DON'T mess around, JUST GET IT!! accuramachinetools.com no affiliation, but seriously, don't waste a second deliberating.

There we were having a perfectly nice time and a SALESMAN shows up to spoil the fun!

Just kidding- I do take that as a strong endorsement for the mitering BS option.

Pulling away from the Accura- is that largely equivalent to the Femi made saws rebadged by Dake and Hem?

I have no problem with Taiwan machines as I have some excellent ones in the shop.
I guess I need to take the offerings apart to the important bits- gear box type, motor type and hp, clamp type, blade guides, coolant pump etc etc

 

[just Dave]

Band saw, band saw, band saw.

Piece of oak or titanium or steel-same blade, same saw.

If you are almost all stainless/steel then a wet abrasive saw. They cut super clean and swing for mitering easily.

Not same blade for best results. It will work though.

 

[Ries]

Single miter Haberle. Great saw, mine is too fast for stainless. Use it all the time for aluminum, copper alloys, and mild steel. 10' outfeed table on the left with homemade biesemeyer style stop, with steel tape rule adhesive stuck to rail.
45 degree miter bandsaw- 10x16, runs 1" blades. Will give consistent thickness .100 discs in 3" stainless. 12' outfeed table with another home made biesemeyer style stop, as I use it a lot on stainless, and stainless comes in 12 footers. But it will work just fine on 20's, too.
These two, together, will cut most things.
Both are heavy, cut accurately, and are bolted to the floor.
But I do know several small fab shops who use the swivel head bandsaws like the little HEM you linked to, and within reason, they like em. The tend to run flat, angle, and tubing up to around 3/8" wall or thickness, and solid rounds up to about 1" dia. Bigger stuff, say 6" angle or 8" pipe or 2" solid square, no go on a little bandsaw like that- but it would probably work fine for what you do.

 

[cyanidekid]

There we were having a perfectly nice time and a SALESMAN shows up to spoil the fun!

Just kidding- I do that’s that as a strong endorsement for the mitering BS option.

Pulling away from the Accura- is that largely equivalent to the Femi made saws rebadged by Dake and Hem?

I have no problem with Taiwan machines as I have some excellent ones in the shop.
I guess I need to take the offerings apart to the important bits- gear box type, motor type and hp, clamp type, blade guides, coolant pump etc etc

haha! my apologies for sounding like one.

I don't have hands on time with Femi saws, but the first ones like this I saw (around 1990) were supposedly made in Italy, but I think they
quickly started having them made in Taiwan or China and as with a lot of Italian stuff, didn't state the origin.

a quick search seems to bring up 12,000.00 saws that look similar from those brands

if you get to NYC you are welcome to come try it out. cheers!

 

[Whetstone]

Bandsaw is the way to go if you are only going to have one saw. Id agree with cyanidekid and to try and spring for a true double miter band saw in the 6" to 10" range. I also cut a ton of stainless bar and tubing and process it through both a band and cold saw. We upgraded our pivoting 10" bewo cold saw to a 14' hydmech with a silding head on linear rails, THAT was a world of difference changing cut quality, speed and blade life. I don't think id buy another coldsaw that wasn't a sliding head.

If your budget is really tight there are some small benchtop double miter bandsaw from a company calf Hemi, I bought their NG120 to bring on jobsites, it will cut through a 1x2 stainless bar, but I would not want to have to use it every day.

If you really want a cold saw, I still have my old Bewo with a ton of blades, id sell it cheap if you think it would help.

 

[projectnut]

Quoting from a previous post by Trboatworks:
I just read this on from KMT on the cold saws:

"For tubes, pipes, light structurals. Hinge type machines are generally not considered production machines, but may be used in production under carefully considered applications."

It's interesting that KMT made this statement. The cold saw I purchased last year was originally purchased in 2011 by Steel King Industries in Stevens Point WI. It spent the first 11 years of its life in a production situation cutting tubing for pallet and storage racks. It was ridden hard and put away wet. The equipment dealer I bought if from said they replaced it with a larger automated version. I'm thinking it was probably more cost effective to go to an automated version rather than having someone standing in front of a manual saw for 8 hours a day. I couldn't imagine how boring it would be to operate a manual saw all day long day after day week after week. I think I'd be looking for a different job in less than a month.

 

[EmGo]

I have a job coming in with lots of polished small angle in 316 to cut and weld up so would like to have something in the shop soon- fussy boat work so plastic liners on the vise etc.
I need a saw that will chop 90's and 45's etc clean and square so I can drop right over to the tig work without much more than a debur.

We're back to the tube laser !

There's another option - seems like trying to do everything with one saw is the problem. And no room to put it ... otherwise a Marvel 8 would make your hobby horse rock.

Are there no steel suppliers nearby that could do the occasional stuff, so you could concentrate on what you do mostly ? Or split up your requirements - for occasional solids, a power hack will do that fine at an astonishingly low price. Pull that need out of your requirements and what is left ?

I still personally don't care for the bandsaw choice because you are going with small. If you found room for a Marvel, yay ! but those little ones are so squeegly, I'm definitely a coldsaw fan for clean-cut-inna-small-space reasons.

Or that tube laser