Folks I need a saw- Cold or Miterband?

[projectnut]

Is the lube system going to be used to apply cutting oil to the work piece, or is it for actually lubricating the machine?

If it's for applying cutting oil to the work, it will be interesting to see how it works out. My Baileigh saw creates so much swarf cutting solids the water-based coolant has to be set to a fairly high volume to wash the swarf out of the cutting area. It's a delicate balance between enough to wash it out of the cut area and not so much you overflow the coolant return trough.

If you're primarily cutting tube, I would guess the swarf problem is going to be minimal as compared to cutting solids.

 

[Trboatworks]

On cold saws as far as I gather with MQL systems the delivery is top of blade under guard with two jets directed at gullet and each side of tooth.
The Haberle’s come equipped as an option with the Unist system pump and a Haberle built fitting.

This is Haberle gear:



And the Unist one:



I am going to shop build one along the lines of the Haberle.
The saw I have is drilled and tapped for the assembly and it’s plate.
I’ll post something as I get it going to report how it works out.
I don’t have much invested in this so far but am really hoping it works out.
Accu-Lube, Haberle and Unist are all presenting that it is a viable approach.
For clearing chips I am just going to have to see how it goes.
With MQL the chips are dry so maybe an air stream or perhaps the blade will just clear them out.

These systems are switched by simply turning on and off the delivered air.
I already have a pneumatic valve on the saw so am really good to go to set this system up:



I ran through a bunch of threads on PM and it seems to work;

“I just switched to a MQL setup. Works perfect on my scotchman 14" cold saw. I cut aluminum, steel, and copper and it works just as good or better than coolant without the mess. The drain is a pita on the scotchman so not using coolant makes things a lot easier.”

Cold saw owners - how do you contain coolant?

Hey guys, I've got a Haberle H300 cold saw that I use mostly for cuting 1"-2" square tubing and channel. On very short, or very long cuts I don't have much problem with coolant escaping and ending up on the floor (I just clamp in the vise and elevate the ends slightly), but anything where the...

www.practicalmachinist.com

Some ad copy from Unist:

I am starting with the Unist cutting oil as it appears to be a sweet spot for utility and no oxidation etc.


I wasn’t going to spend the $1500 needed to buy this gear and was running down the relevant parts to shop build a pro level MQL system- the pneumatic pulse generator and delivery pump etc.
I stumbled across the HGR listing and saved myself all that trouble.

This video specifically shows the Unist system OEM installation on a Haberle cold saw:

 

[projectnut]

I can't say that either of the videos sold me on the use of the system. The first one seems to be ok cutting thin wall tube, but the second one with what appears to be solid aluminum has chips flying all over the place. While you might be using less coolant I think you're going to have quite a mess to clean up.

Here are a couple pictures of the swarf my saw created when cutting slugs of 2" solid aluminum round stock. The slugs were measured top to bottom and front to back as part of the blade adjustment process. When completed there was less than .001" difference in either plane.

The swarf generated was the result of 7 cuts using a 350mm x 2.0mm x 32mm blade with 120 teeth ground for aluminum.

 

[memphisjed]

Flood, twin streamed across the blade to flush out chips and keep it cool. Misters need more of everything. A cool mist mounted the same spraying wet would be better solution.
I think done with similar set up cool mist/wet fog buster would be better than straight low pressure coolant flows.

 

[Ries]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I prefer the flood coolant- first, because the blades are so expensive I would rather err in the direction of more coolant than less, but second because of the washdown effect of chips. The saw I have has a big tub down in the base, holds around a gallon, and it fills up with chips, to the point where its like ten pounds worth when I dump it out. This can be once a year, or once a week, depending on usage.
I have never noticed the haberle coolant to be difficult to clean off work pieces, or affect welding in any way. So I am sticking with it.

 

[Trboatworks]

These are not mist systems.
There is lots of empirical research behind this approach which suggests equal or better blade/tooling life.
I guess I will see.
The saw is fully equipped with flood pump and draining sump for chip separation etc.
Running flood is as simple as pouring some in but in my shop I would like to avoid that if the MQL system works.

The Haberle comes stock now from factory with manual MQL and flood, MQL the micro pump delivery being an option to kit out from new or add.

This saw was a mess when I brought it into the shop from a life of flood coolant.
To provide the cut flexibility the Haberle H90 provides there are relatively more moving parts.
Every single one was locked up from coolant.
No thanks- I will not use that unless I have to.
Dry chips I don’t see as a problem rather simpler to clean up.

 

[memphisjed]

Three unists systems on saws- not one is used anymore. I have yet to find anyone with luck using them. Hope you become the first.

Keep an eye out on the mounting set up and mark on the outside where it sits. The finger screws loosen with vibration and the mister head rides into the blade. Blades win that battle every time. If marked on the outside you have a visual check engine light.

 

[Trboatworks]

I spoke with Haberle and they also support that the system works fine.
I somehow don’t see I will be the first one to have luck using factory supplied gear on the saw.

But…
It will quickly prove itself here soon enough or not.
If not I pour some coolant in the tub and go to work.
Thanks for the tip on the fitting slipping.
Being shop built I can easily enough beat that problem.

 

[projectnut]

I wasn't big on the flood system myself. I have 2 other saws in the shop that have it and have up to this point have avoided using it mainly because of the potential mess and rancid coolant. On the cold saw I didn't have much of a choice. I tried mist, but the swarf stuck to the blade, the work piece, and vise. I tried a dry cut blade. It worked but left a horrible finish. I finally went to the flood coolant. It clears the swarf from the kerf better, keeps the blade clean, and washes the swarf toward the coolant trough. It's a touchy process. Too much coolant and all the swarf washes to the filter screen and plugs it up. Then the coolant overflows onto the floor. Not enough and the swarf piles up in the vise and on the work piece.

Swarf disposal is still far messier with the cold saw than any of the other saws primarily because the swarf doesn't drop into a dedicated pan. Rather it piles up and has to eventually be cleared manually with either a brush or a vacuum. I've seen more automated saws with considerably larger coolant reservoirs, and dedicated swarf pans. I've considered fabricating a similar system, but to date I haven't used the saw enough to justify it.

 

[Trboatworks]

MQL is not mist.
What I am gathering is a “near dry” process.
Blade not wet and chips dry.

Again- I will report back.
I really am not a beta tester here.
MQL has a fairly robust presence in industry.

I did check back with Haberle as I didn’t have details.
He said the Unist system is robust and is fitted as standard equipment on the semi auto production use cold saws they sell for use in lieu of flood.
You can see the Unist on one of those here-



The manual saws come standard with flood and a manual HQL system.

I have reservations on my specific application with sawing largely 316.
If it does that I don’t see anything else I saw being an issue.

 

[Trboatworks]

Ok.
I post all this mess as somewhere between a warning to others (there but for the graces go I…), and maybe it could help someone.

So…
It works.
Maybe…
I just copied the Haberle gear for top of blade coolant with a few small improvements to the design.
I am using the Unist cutting oil type Coolube 2210al.







I tried first on a stick of 1/2”x4” A36 using a 2.5mmx315mm 90 tooth blade with stainless grind spinning at 54rpm.
This stock cut well- perfect better than milled finish with no burr.
That stock dropped cold from the cut.



I switched out the blade to the only other I have-
3mmx315mm180 tooth stainless grind and went at a piece of 316 stainless .15”x2.5” tube cut at 20 rpm.
This also cut well- great finish and no burr.
The cutoff was warm but not hot.
I didn’t take any special pains on setup and that drop is slightly over .001” out on 2.5” diameter- I can work with that.



Ok- where I am at…
I don’t know where I am at.
After trying to figure out how to design a micro nozzle to deliver near atomized drop at a time delivery at unknown fluid pressure in a cone of 3/8”x3/4” I just said screw it and made a replaceable Delrin nozzle head on the widget so I could mess with it in future.
The one I made I simply slotted at 4mm and dropped a .020” hole at the top of slot.
Well it works- sort of.
Fine spray with sputtering.

Well the instructions say to run the unit delivery down till it takes a full minute to see any evidence of cutting oil on a piece of paper.
These units use a pneumatic pulse generator which drives micro dispensing pumps- 2 drops or less per generator impulse.
One sets the pump fluid volume and generator frequency to determine ml/minute.
I chickened out and it set cutting oil to be visible in seconds.
So way too much cutting oil.
Chip’s slightly damp but still act dry and don’t stick to stuff or clump up.

So I really don’t know the bottom line here till I dial this in and then see what kind of blade life I am getting.
So far-
This is a go- I can work with this.
I have a new fine tooth blade coming in on Monday in colbalt/TiN coated - that is the blade I really need to work with on thin wall stainless to see where I am at with this MQL setup.

The installation-

 

[Trboatworks]

So an update on the MQL installation.

I have just completed my first couple of weeks long contract with this system and I can say it is faultless.
I ran an assortment of stock from 1” thin tube out to 4” bar plus 1 to 2.5” rounds in stainless and aluminum cutting with blades from 90 to 300 tooth.
I dialed the cutting oil down a good bit.
For my shop I can’t see a single reason why I would switch back to flooded coolant.
All the stock is cutting well and I don’t see any signs of heat in the cut which would lead to early blade wear.

Plus- the damn operation is clean.
The stock comes off the saw dry and the few chips that get inside of tube etc are just shaken out.
The chips on the saw are dry and I keep an old brush handy to sweep them off occasionally.
Mostly I only bother as this saw has a vise and gear which slides around and I want to keep the chips out of the way as I move things to setup cuts.
The old flood coolant carried those chips everywhere where they packed up in a sticky mess.

So I am a happy camper.
This system is exactly as advertised.
I am using the Accu-lube delivery gear with the Unist 2210AL cutting oil.
I also have a small jug of the Unist 2210EP and will give that a go then buy a gallon of the the one which preforms best on stainless.
I expect a jug will go a couple of years in my shop.

On the results with a cold saw in general, that is also running as advertised.
I am taking stock directly from the saw to the tig bench with no additional work needed.
Cuts are mill finish and dead nuts true.



Clean operation- a couple of seconds to police up chips and nothing wet:



And also the Haberle H90 is a hoot.
Its flexibility might make it less useful for chopping miles of structural steel but it comes in handy for the small volume custom work I do with lots of oddball cuts:



So if you are wondering about MQL for a saw I would say come on over- the waters fine.
I will update in a years time after I see how things hold up but it is looking good so far.

The rep with UNIST helped me out.
A decent outfit in my experience:

Unist Online Store

Unist Online Store, Unist, Online, Store

uniststore.com

 

[EmanuelGoldstein]

I will update in a years time after I see how things hold up but it is looking good so far.

I still think you shoulda gone for the five axis tube laser but if you're gonna be a luddite, i guess it's good that everything is working well. Maybe even made putting up with us cheeze-wizzes worthwhile ?

 

[Trboatworks]

if you're gonna be a luddite,

Moss I am condemned to whittling bits of stock by the most primitive means possible at the highest billable rate conceivable so as to shroud my work in the “artisan” mantle.

It’s hell but I suffer through it…

 

[DanielG]

Moss I am condemned to whittling bits of stock by the most primitive means possible at the highest billable rate conceivable so as to shroud my work in the “artisan” mantle.

It’s hell but I suffer through it…

Do you at least have the decency to use an artisan, hand-crafted file to whittle your stock? Bonus points if the guy who made the file has a full beard, a leather apron, and an old truck.

 

[projectnut]

Thanks for the update. It sounds like the saw and the lube system are working out well for you. The lube system is an interesting concept and may be well worth the money in a commercial situation. Unfortunately, the cost is a little prohibitive for some of us who no longer bring in much income from our machines. Most dealers are asking in the $1,000.00 range for a system like the one you have. In my case that would more than double the cost of operating the machine and not bring in any more income. For the limited use my machine gets I'll have to stick with the flood coolant. If by some off hand chance, I should get a multi-million-dollar contract I'll consider investing in one. Thanks again and happy cutting.