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Foundations query.

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
I wish to set up my Crossley crude oil engine. As it has a short base.it was originally on a tall concrete base.with another to support the outrigger bearing. The flywheel weighs about 2 tons! Some like to make a rigid steel frame that takes the lot. What I’m thinking is a box base so that the flywheel clears the floor,and a separate rigid fabrication that will support the outrigger bearing. I can’t think of any reason this shouldn’t be alright. Any comments welcome.
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Ted:

I have some experience designing engine foundations. Go with the basic axiom: "two points determine a line". Assuming your Crossley engine has two (2) crankshaft main bearings that integral with the engine's mainframe, and the outrigger or pedestal bearing is the third bearing. This makes three (3) points trying to form a line. What happens in this type situation is the outboard bearing becomes the tail that can wag the dog, creating a bending moment in the crankshaft if a misalignment of that outboard bearing is present. The center main bearing becomes the fulcrum of a lever, and the misalignment of the outboard bearing exerts the force. The crankshaft will then flex about the point where the main journal meets the crank web, or about the transition from the crankweb to the crankpin journal.

Getting a good alignment on that outboard bearing is more important than it might first appear. We recently did a stabilization on a similar foundation/engine at Hanford Mills museum, where their center crank steam engine had two main bearings in the frame, and we extended the crankshaft and supported it on an outboard pedestal bearing. This was to allow us to move one flywheel out from the main frame to line up the belting to a line shaft. The original mortared stone foundations were seen to be moving in relation to one another when the engine pulled load or came on or off load. I designed a monolithic concrete foundation (concealed below the engine room floor), which tied both the main engine's stone pier foundation and the outboard pedestal bearing (part of the engine room's mortared stone foundation wall) together with rebar dowels and plenty of mass concrete. I will check the alignment of that outboard bearing using my Starrett 696 crankshaft deflection gauge and move the pillow block bearing accordingly. Previously, we were chasing that alignment with several adjustments to the outboard pillow block each operating season.

For your Crossley engine, a fabricated steel 'bedplate will work just fine if you use rigid enough beam sections. I am unfamiliar with what structural steel 'mill shapes' you use in the UK, but have designed a few bedplate type engine foundations as well. I use a section which we call "Wideflange' (an "H" section where the flange width and beam section depth are approximately equal. Deckin g the bedplate with steel plate and welding in gussets or 'web stiffeners' on the Wideflange sections will build "cells and give a very strong construction. A well designed bedplate will hold your engine and its outboard bearing in good alignment, with a few

caveats:

1. Design the bedplate so you place little to no reliance on the ground (or slab floor) underneath it to hold things in alignment and take up any deflection in the bedplate.

2. Design the bedplate as if it were a box-=girder or similar, with support only at the corner points (where you will shim things to level)

3. Do not expect the engine on its bedplate to hold still when running. The bedplate will not do what a massed masonry foundation did, i.e., function as an inertia block. If you want to get some mass dampening to absorb the forces from the reciprocating masses in your engine, you could try filling the bedplate with sand or pea gravel. Or, you could anchor the bedplate to an existing concrete slab. Assuming the slab is not tied to a building as some of the vibration from the engine will otherwise be transferred to the building.
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Thanks Joe-I think that answers my query. I’m thinking in terms of a box base for the engine made out of say 10mm plate and a A shape outrigger support of box section all bolted to a good concrete slab. I know that you shim under the outrigger bearing until there is no variation in web gaps at all 4 quadrants. And to check every so often. The ground is hard clay which I believe is good. It’s previous site was silt,with peat beneath,and it was taken out of commission because the engine could be felt for a good distance.
 

Asquith

Diamond
Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Location
Somerset, UK
I agree with Joe.

There’s a considerable amount of out-of-balance force wanting to move the engine fore and aft, so the addition of a concrete mass is a great help

The late Runcorn-Widnes transporter bridge was powered by a Crossley horizontal single-cylinder gas engine fix to the steel tower on one side of the River Mersey. It is said that passengers waiting on the pier on the opposite river bank – 1000 feet away – could feel the vibration, tranmitted through the steeel structure!

I recently checked the alignment of a Crossley horizontal oil engine. It’s on concrete plinths and normally runs as steady as a rock, but the outrigger bearing pedestal had become loose. By clocking between the crank webs, I found that the alignment was seriously out. So far out that the shaft wasn’t touching the bottom of the outrigger bearing, and it was also lifting out of the outboard main bearing. Just the one bearing out of three was taking the weight of the crankshaft, flywheel and pulley! Realignment was straightforward.
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Hello Ted:

You are on the right track with your proposed steel bedplate & slab. As Limy Sam correctly notes, the portion of the bedplate which extends to mount the outboard bearing has to be every bit as rigid as the rest of the bedplate. Personally, I would simply make an "L" shaped bedplate, not going with an "A" shaped extension. While the triangulation of the A shape will be quite stiff, I tend to think in terms of ease of fabrication. If you make your bedplate in an "L" shape with a "well" for the flywheel, I am sure it will be fine. 10 mm plate is approximately 3/8" ( I am a dinosaur who thinks in inches and does the mental math for rough conversions to metric and vice-versa). Depending on the size of the bedplate and the main structural members, and your noting the flywheel as weighing 2 tons, I am thinking I'd go up to at least 12 mm ( 1/2") plate and some hefty Wideflange beam sections (or whatever the UK equivalent of a US Wideflange is). Many years ago, engineers at Bethlehem Steel realized the traditional "I" beam sections were lacking structurally for many applications. They came up with the Wideflange series of beam sections. A traditional I beam section relies on the depth of the beam to space relatively narrow flanges far enough from the neutral axis of the I beam to get a high enough moment of inertia to handle structural loadings. I beams tend to be deeper and narrower and more 'twisty' than wideflange sections. I almost never use I beams in my structural designs for those reasons. Without knowing more about your Crossley engine, I am 'shooting from the hip, in the dark' in terms of what information or help I can provide you with,

I would also suggest that when you build your bedframe, you might plan on putting some heavy plate steel pads (say 25 mm or 1" plate) wherever the engine mainframe anchor bolts are located. These pads give you something to tap for the anchor studbolts, and give you something to shim off of. It has been my experience with engine mainframe castings that the underside of the casting was often left unmachined. This was based on the presumption that the engine was going onto a masonry (or concrete) foundation and grouting would be used to take up for irregularities in the bottom surfaces of the mainframe. I address this by using a soft copper shim on top of each shim pack at each anchor bolt location. The soft copper shim lets the rough as-cast surfaces on the bottom of an engine mainframe 'bite' into the copper. If Crossley was so thoughtful as to plane off the bottom surfaces of the mainframe of your engine, you are way ahead of the game.

As for welding, I would avoid putting continuous 'running' welds on the top of the fabricated steel baseplate. The intersecting weld joints where the main structural members (which I would be designing as wideflange sections here in the USA) get full welds. The flanges get full penetration welds, webs tie to webs at the intersecting connections with fillet welds. The top plate should be put on with a stitch weld to avoid excessive weld stress and subsequent distortion. I'd use a flux-cored/gas shielded welding procedure (known as GFCAW) as it puts down a lot of weld and has a lot less post-weld distortion than SMAW (shielded metal arc welding, aka "stick welding"). Stick is OK for small welds and tacking things in place, but to get the amount of weld put down you will be needing, I'd go with FCAW.

Since your engine will be sitting on a steel bedplate rather than a masonry foundation, it should be 'chocked'. On a traditional masonry foundation, engine mainframes were grouted. The grout mix took up any irregularities in the surface of the foundation as well as the underside of the engine mainframe. This grout also served to chock the mainframe from moving fore-and-aft (as would be the case with a horizontal engine) in relation to the foundation. On steel foundations, such as aboard ships, machinery was chocked against movement relative to the steel foundations it was bolted to. Chocking was done by welding or bolting steel blocks that bore solidly against the vertical edges of an engine's mainframe or other machinery's mounting feet. On smaller machinery, reamed and fitted dowels were used. In more recent times, chocking is done using epoxy resin compounds. These work great.... until you have to remove the machinery from its foundation. That is when you wish you never heard of epoxy resin choking compound and want to call in a tactical airstrike. In your case, welding some 'jacking dogs' to the top of the steel bedplate with jacking screws will suffice to chock your engine. The reciprocating mass in a horizontal engine wants to move the engine fore-and-aft and also can produce some lateral forces. Chocking with some jacking dogs and jacking screws (lock nutted) will take care of this matter and lets you remove the engine or tweak its final position on the baseplate.

Anchoring to the slab, I would suggest using drilled-in anchor bolts set in resin grout. Hilti and other firms offer a variety of resin grouts, some in capsule form, some in 'sausage form', and some in two-part cartridges for use in mixing 'guns'. No sense fighting with imbed anchor bolts. Get the slab in place and put the anchor bolts in afterwards. I'd also suggest chipping off the top of the slab's concrete before setting the steel bedplate. Chipping to expose aggregate will give a good bond for non-shrink grouting. I'd use a cementitious non-metallic non shrink grout and allow 1/2 to 1" of shim thickness between the underside of your baseplate and top of the slab concrete. The non shrink grout will take up any voids and give as close to complete bearing contact as possible. Once you have the bedplate grouted, you can fill it with what I call 'slush grout'. Non shrink grout is pricey and works well. For simply filling the bedplate to add mass dampening and cut out any 'empty drum' sounding from within the bedplate cells, we fill the bedplates with a sand-cement grout. This is something like 4 parts clean sharp sand to 3 parts of portland cement, mixed to a flowable consistency and poured into the cavities in the bedplate. We typically cut grout holes in the top plates of this sort of bedplate, allowing holes for trapped air to escape as well as to pour the grout into. The slush grout is brought right up to the level of the steel plate top on the bedplate and struck off flush with it. Makes a neat job and a couple of coats of enamel paint finish it so oil does not soak into the grouting.

Prior to placing the concrete for the slab, I'd suggest you put down a bed of crushed stone, perhaps about 2" on its largest side. If you are doing any grading or excavating for the area where the slab goes, a bed of crushed stone 6"-12" deep will let the slab rest on the soil and help with drainage under the slab since it sits on clay soil. I'd make the slab at least 10-12" thick to get some more mass and strength. I'd reinforce it with number 5 ( 5/8" nominal) rebars, two 'mats' tied on 12" x 12" centers, one mat at the top, one at the bottom of the slab. Allow 2" of cover concrete between the outer surfaces of the slab and the rebar. This cover concrete is important as it gets the rebar in deep enough in the concrete to get a good mechanical bond and do its work structurally. It also is better at resisting freeze thaw cycling. I'd spec the concrete with a 3-5% air entrainment, particularly if the slab is outdoors. The air entrainment helps the slab better stand up to freeze-thaw cycling. I'd use concrete with a minimum compressive strength (Fc') of 3000 psi, and pour with a stiff mix (a slump of about 3" max). Done a lot of concrete foundation design over my career and seen a lot of concrete placed for hydroelectric plant work, machinery foundations and building construction. Some up front work on the slab will insure your engine sits solidly and does not get up and dance when running, and will maintain good alignment between the main bearings and the outboard pedestal bearing.
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Limy Sami-I can’t see your contribution,which I would like to see. for some reason,somehow the site hides all your content. I don’t know what happened there. Perhaps the moderator or other expert could look into what has happened and rectify it,please.
 

Peter S

Diamond
Joined
May 6, 2002
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Ted,

Here are some images which show Crossley engines, two are on a box base and all have an outboard support.

It sounds like your engine may be larger - what model and year is it?

The adverts look to be late 1890's while the engine at Townsville worked a swing bridge which opened in 1899. Not sure where this photo came from, maybe Asquith?

00000009.jpg 00000012.jpg Crossley at Townsville 2010.jpg
 

just Dave

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 18, 2023
Location
Kansas City
Hello Ted:

You are on the right track with your proposed steel bedplate & slab. As Limy Sam correctly notes, the portion of the bedplate which extends to mount the outboard bearing has to be every bit as rigid as the rest of the bedplate. Personally, I would simply make an "L" shaped bedplate, not going with an "A" shaped extension. While the triangulation of the A shape will be quite stiff, I tend to think in terms of ease of fabrication. If you make your bedplate in an "L" shape with a "well" for the flywheel, I am sure it will be fine. 10 mm plate is approximately 3/8" ( I am a dinosaur who thinks in inches and does the mental math for rough conversions to metric and vice-versa). Depending on the size of the bedplate and the main structural members, and your noting the flywheel as weighing 2 tons, I am thinking I'd go up to at least 12 mm ( 1/2") plate and some hefty Wideflange beam sections (or whatever the UK equivalent of a US Wideflange is). Many years ago, engineers at Bethlehem Steel realized the traditional "I" beam sections were lacking structurally for many applications. They came up with the Wideflange series of beam sections. A traditional I beam section relies on the depth of the beam to space relatively narrow flanges far enough from the neutral axis of the I beam to get a high enough moment of inertia to handle structural loadings. I beams tend to be deeper and narrower and more 'twisty' than wideflange sections. I almost never use I beams in my structural designs for those reasons. Without knowing more about your Crossley engine, I am 'shooting from the hip, in the dark' in terms of what information or help I can provide you with,

I would also suggest that when you build your bedframe, you might plan on putting some heavy plate steel pads (say 25 mm or 1" plate) wherever the engine mainframe anchor bolts are located. These pads give you something to tap for the anchor studbolts, and give you something to shim off of. It has been my experience with engine mainframe castings that the underside of the casting was often left unmachined. This was based on the presumption that the engine was going onto a masonry (or concrete) foundation and grouting would be used to take up for irregularities in the bottom surfaces of the mainframe. I address this by using a soft copper shim on top of each shim pack at each anchor bolt location. The soft copper shim lets the rough as-cast surfaces on the bottom of an engine mainframe 'bite' into the copper. If Crossley was so thoughtful as to plane off the bottom surfaces of the mainframe of your engine, you are way ahead of the game.

As for welding, I would avoid putting continuous 'running' welds on the top of the fabricated steel baseplate. The intersecting weld joints where the main structural members (which I would be designing as wideflange sections here in the USA) get full welds. The flanges get full penetration welds, webs tie to webs at the intersecting connections with fillet welds. The top plate should be put on with a stitch weld to avoid excessive weld stress and subsequent distortion. I'd use a flux-cored/gas shielded welding procedure (known as GFCAW) as it puts down a lot of weld and has a lot less post-weld distortion than SMAW (shielded metal arc welding, aka "stick welding"). Stick is OK for small welds and tacking things in place, but to get the amount of weld put down you will be needing, I'd go with FCAW.

Since your engine will be sitting on a steel bedplate rather than a masonry foundation, it should be 'chocked'. On a traditional masonry foundation, engine mainframes were grouted. The grout mix took up any irregularities in the surface of the foundation as well as the underside of the engine mainframe. This grout also served to chock the mainframe from moving fore-and-aft (as would be the case with a horizontal engine) in relation to the foundation. On steel foundations, such as aboard ships, machinery was chocked against movement relative to the steel foundations it was bolted to. Chocking was done by welding or bolting steel blocks that bore solidly against the vertical edges of an engine's mainframe or other machinery's mounting feet. On smaller machinery, reamed and fitted dowels were used. In more recent times, chocking is done using epoxy resin compounds. These work great.... until you have to remove the machinery from its foundation. That is when you wish you never heard of epoxy resin choking compound and want to call in a tactical airstrike. In your case, welding some 'jacking dogs' to the top of the steel bedplate with jacking screws will suffice to chock your engine. The reciprocating mass in a horizontal engine wants to move the engine fore-and-aft and also can produce some lateral forces. Chocking with some jacking dogs and jacking screws (lock nutted) will take care of this matter and lets you remove the engine or tweak its final position on the baseplate.

Anchoring to the slab, I would suggest using drilled-in anchor bolts set in resin grout. Hilti and other firms offer a variety of resin grouts, some in capsule form, some in 'sausage form', and some in two-part cartridges for use in mixing 'guns'. No sense fighting with imbed anchor bolts. Get the slab in place and put the anchor bolts in afterwards. I'd also suggest chipping off the top of the slab's concrete before setting the steel bedplate. Chipping to expose aggregate will give a good bond for non-shrink grouting. I'd use a cementitious non-metallic non shrink grout and allow 1/2 to 1" of shim thickness between the underside of your baseplate and top of the slab concrete. The non shrink grout will take up any voids and give as close to complete bearing contact as possible. Once you have the bedplate grouted, you can fill it with what I call 'slush grout'. Non shrink grout is pricey and works well. For simply filling the bedplate to add mass dampening and cut out any 'empty drum' sounding from within the bedplate cells, we fill the bedplates with a sand-cement grout. This is something like 4 parts clean sharp sand to 3 parts of portland cement, mixed to a flowable consistency and poured into the cavities in the bedplate. We typically cut grout holes in the top plates of this sort of bedplate, allowing holes for trapped air to escape as well as to pour the grout into. The slush grout is brought right up to the level of the steel plate top on the bedplate and struck off flush with it. Makes a neat job and a couple of coats of enamel paint finish it so oil does not soak into the grouting.

Prior to placing the concrete for the slab, I'd suggest you put down a bed of crushed stone, perhaps about 2" on its largest side. If you are doing any grading or excavating for the area where the slab goes, a bed of crushed stone 6"-12" deep will let the slab rest on the soil and help with drainage under the slab since it sits on clay soil. I'd make the slab at least 10-12" thick to get some more mass and strength. I'd reinforce it with number 5 ( 5/8" nominal) rebars, two 'mats' tied on 12" x 12" centers, one mat at the top, one at the bottom of the slab. Allow 2" of cover concrete between the outer surfaces of the slab and the rebar. This cover concrete is important as it gets the rebar in deep enough in the concrete to get a good mechanical bond and do its work structurally. It also is better at resisting freeze thaw cycling. I'd spec the concrete with a 3-5% air entrainment, particularly if the slab is outdoors. The air entrainment helps the slab better stand up to freeze-thaw cycling. I'd use concrete with a minimum compressive strength (Fc') of 3000 psi, and pour with a stiff mix (a slump of about 3" max). Done a lot of concrete foundation design over my career and seen a lot of concrete placed for hydroelectric plant work, machinery foundations and building construction. Some up front work on the slab will insure your engine sits solidly and does not get up and dance when running, and will maintain good alignment between the main bearings and the outboard pedestal bearing.
Impressive write up
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Hello Ted:

You are on the right track with your proposed steel bedplate & slab. As Limy Sam correctly notes, the portion of the bedplate which extends to mount the outboard bearing has to be every bit as rigid as the rest of the bedplate. Personally, I would simply make an "L" shaped bedplate, not going with an "A" shaped extension. While the triangulation of the A shape will be quite stiff, I tend to think in terms of ease of fabrication. If you make your bedplate in an "L" shape with a "well" for the flywheel, I am sure it will be fine. 10 mm plate is approximately 3/8" ( I am a dinosaur who thinks in inches and does the mental math for rough conversions to metric and vice-versa). Depending on the size of the bedplate and the main structural members, and your noting the flywheel as weighing 2 tons, I am thinking I'd go up to at least 12 mm ( 1/2") plate and some hefty Wideflange beam sections (or whatever the UK equivalent of a US Wideflange is). Many years ago, engineers at Bethlehem Steel realized the traditional "I" beam sections were lacking structurally for many applications. They came up with the Wideflange series of beam sections. A traditional I beam section relies on the depth of the beam to space relatively narrow flanges far enough from the neutral axis of the I beam to get a high enough moment of inertia to handle structural loadings. I beams tend to be deeper and narrower and more 'twisty' than wideflange sections. I almost never use I beams in my structural designs for those reasons. Without knowing more about your Crossley engine, I am 'shooting from the hip, in the dark' in terms of what information or help I can provide you with,

I would also suggest that when you build your bedframe, you might plan on putting some heavy plate steel pads (say 25 mm or 1" plate) wherever the engine mainframe anchor bolts are located. These pads give you something to tap for the anchor studbolts, and give you something to shim off of. It has been my experience with engine mainframe castings that the underside of the casting was often left unmachined. This was based on the presumption that the engine was going onto a masonry (or concrete) foundation and grouting would be used to take up for irregularities in the bottom surfaces of the mainframe. I address this by using a soft copper shim on top of each shim pack at each anchor bolt location. The soft copper shim lets the rough as-cast surfaces on the bottom of an engine mainframe 'bite' into the copper. If Crossley was so thoughtful as to plane off the bottom surfaces of the mainframe of your engine, you are way ahead of the game.

As for welding, I would avoid putting continuous 'running' welds on the top of the fabricated steel baseplate. The intersecting weld joints where the main structural members (which I would be designing as wideflange sections here in the USA) get full welds. The flanges get full penetration welds, webs tie to webs at the intersecting connections with fillet welds. The top plate should be put on with a stitch weld to avoid excessive weld stress and subsequent distortion. I'd use a flux-cored/gas shielded welding procedure (known as GFCAW) as it puts down a lot of weld and has a lot less post-weld distortion than SMAW (shielded metal arc welding, aka "stick welding"). Stick is OK for small welds and tacking things in place, but to get the amount of weld put down you will be needing, I'd go with FCAW.

Since your engine will be sitting on a steel bedplate rather than a masonry foundation, it should be 'chocked'. On a traditional masonry foundation, engine mainframes were grouted. The grout mix took up any irregularities in the surface of the foundation as well as the underside of the engine mainframe. This grout also served to chock the mainframe from moving fore-and-aft (as would be the case with a horizontal engine) in relation to the foundation. On steel foundations, such as aboard ships, machinery was chocked against movement relative to the steel foundations it was bolted to. Chocking was done by welding or bolting steel blocks that bore solidly against the vertical edges of an engine's mainframe or other machinery's mounting feet. On smaller machinery, reamed and fitted dowels were used. In more recent times, chocking is done using epoxy resin compounds. These work great.... until you have to remove the machinery from its foundation. That is when you wish you never heard of epoxy resin choking compound and want to call in a tactical airstrike. In your case, welding some 'jacking dogs' to the top of the steel bedplate with jacking screws will suffice to chock your engine. The reciprocating mass in a horizontal engine wants to move the engine fore-and-aft and also can produce some lateral forces. Chocking with some jacking dogs and jacking screws (lock nutted) will take care of this matter and lets you remove the engine or tweak its final position on the baseplate.

Anchoring to the slab, I would suggest using drilled-in anchor bolts set in resin grout. Hilti and other firms offer a variety of resin grouts, some in capsule form, some in 'sausage form', and some in two-part cartridges for use in mixing 'guns'. No sense fighting with imbed anchor bolts. Get the slab in place and put the anchor bolts in afterwards. I'd also suggest chipping off the top of the slab's concrete before setting the steel bedplate. Chipping to expose aggregate will give a good bond for non-shrink grouting. I'd use a cementitious non-metallic non shrink grout and allow 1/2 to 1" of shim thickness between the underside of your baseplate and top of the slab concrete. The non shrink grout will take up any voids and give as close to complete bearing contact as possible. Once you have the bedplate grouted, you can fill it with what I call 'slush grout'. Non shrink grout is pricey and works well. For simply filling the bedplate to add mass dampening and cut out any 'empty drum' sounding from within the bedplate cells, we fill the bedplates with a sand-cement grout. This is something like 4 parts clean sharp sand to 3 parts of portland cement, mixed to a flowable consistency and poured into the cavities in the bedplate. We typically cut grout holes in the top plates of this sort of bedplate, allowing holes for trapped air to escape as well as to pour the grout into. The slush grout is brought right up to the level of the steel plate top on the bedplate and struck off flush with it. Makes a neat job and a couple of coats of enamel paint finish it so oil does not soak into the grouting.

Prior to placing the concrete for the slab, I'd suggest you put down a bed of crushed stone, perhaps about 2" on its largest side. If you are doing any grading or excavating for the area where the slab goes, a bed of crushed stone 6"-12" deep will let the slab rest on the soil and help with drainage under the slab since it sits on clay soil. I'd make the slab at least 10-12" thick to get some more mass and strength. I'd reinforce it with number 5 ( 5/8" nominal) rebars, two 'mats' tied on 12" x 12" centers, one mat at the top, one at the bottom of the slab. Allow 2" of cover concrete between the outer surfaces of the slab and the rebar. This cover concrete is important as it gets the rebar in deep enough in the concrete to get a good mechanical bond and do its work structurally. It also is better at resisting freeze thaw cycling. I'd spec the concrete with a 3-5% air entrainment, particularly if the slab is outdoors. The air entrainment helps the slab better stand up to freeze-thaw cycling. I'd use concrete with a minimum compressive strength (Fc') of 3000 psi, and pour with a stiff mix (a slump of about 3" max). Done a lot of concrete foundation design over my career and seen a lot of concrete placed for hydroelectric plant work, machinery foundations and building construction. Some up front work on the slab will insure your engine sits solidly and does not get up and dance when running, and will maintain good alignment between the main bearings and the outboard pedestal bearing.
Thanks Joe-that is a lot for me to ponder on. I must get it done before I’m too much older-although it’ll be worth it getting some paid help. Can’t do everything myself !
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Ted,

Here are some images which show Crossley engines, two are on a box base and all have an outboard support.

It sounds like your engine may be larger - what model and year is it?

The adverts look to be late 1890's while the engine at Townsville worked a swing bridge which opened in 1899. Not sure where this photo came from, maybe Asquith?

View attachment 398224 View attachment 398225 View attachment 398226
Thanks Jim-those are some nice engines. Crossley was a large concern with a huge output of fine engines. Mine is a type HDS 8 serial 128892. 26hp at 340rpm. Flywheel is 5’ 11” and 9 1/2” face. I speculate that it came out of a picture house around Fakenham in Norfolk.
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Guythat brews:

I think a "picture house" was a motion picture theater, aka, 'cinema'. In the days before there was any power grid/local distribution network, places needing electricity produced their own. Motion picture theaters required significant power for the projectors' lamps, motors, and house lighting. Chances are the Crossley Engine in this thread drove a DC generator at the cinema. Not sure, but I think some of the earliest motion picture projectors used arc lamps.

Ted:
I've found that at this point of my life (I am 72 years of age), it often better to 'take the better part of valor' with some projects. My late father used to say "every man to his own trade'. While I know how to do and have had experience with many types of work, I am one person and time to get jobs done is neither infinitely available nor would I be able to leave things hanging as I worked thru each job. Getting a contractor (or some volunteers) to do some of the Crossley Engine project would be the way I'd go about it. The notion of digging and levelling the ground with a pick and shovel and wheelbarrow, building forms, cutting/bending/tying rebar, and mixing/placing concrete by myself or even with a buddy or two helping is too much work. I tend to take my late father's view, and my time is better spent on work that is within my own profession (mechanical engineer) or trade (machinist). I leave concrete work to people who have the equipment and can get in and get out quickly, using ready-mixed concrete delivered by mixer truck. I'll do field surveying and field layout work, some steel fabrication and machine work. Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) famously said: "A man's got to know his limitations". As I've gotten older, I've come to realize the truth in that saying and apply it more often. Save your back and the rest of your person for the fine work of getting that Crossley engine levelled, crankshaft strain gauge readings taken/outboard bearing aligned, and getting that engine running in good tune.
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Where I grew up in rural Northumberland,we used to “go to the pictures”each week. I think that was local jargon. The very earliest forerunner of the cinema was the Bioscope show. This was a travelling show ,typically the funeral of queen Victoria. The carbon arcs were supplied by a showmans’ generator called an Electric Light Engine. My late father rescued one in 1960 and it still exists-Savage No. 761 of 1900. only a few were built,as it was found the dynamo could be mounted on the smoke box of the road-locomotive.
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Guythat brews:

I think a "picture house" was a motion picture theater, aka, 'cinema'. In the days before there was any power grid/local distribution network, places needing electricity produced their own. Motion picture theaters required significant power for the projectors' lamps, motors, and house lighting. Chances are the Crossley Engine in this thread drove a DC generator at the cinema. Not sure, but I think some of the earliest motion picture projectors used arc lamps.

Ted:
I've found that at this point of my life (I am 72 years of age), it often better to 'take the better part of valor' with some projects. My late father used to say "every man to his own trade'. While I know how to do and have had experience with many types of work, I am one person and time to get jobs done is neither infinitely available nor would I be able to leave things hanging as I worked thru each job. Getting a contractor (or some volunteers) to do some of the Crossley Engine project would be the way I'd go about it. The notion of digging and levelling the ground with a pick and shovel and wheelbarrow, building forms, cutting/bending/tying rebar, and mixing/placing concrete by myself or even with a buddy or two helping is too much work. I tend to take my late father's view, and my time is better spent on work that is within my own profession (mechanical engineer) or trade (machinist). I leave concrete work to people who have the equipment and can get in and get out quickly, using ready-mixed concrete delivered by mixer truck. I'll do field surveying and field layout work, some steel fabrication and machine work. Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) famously said: "A man's got to know his limitations". As I've gotten older, I've come to realize the truth in that saying and apply it more often. Save your back and the rest of your person for the fine work of getting that Crossley engine levelled, crankshaft strain gauge readings taken/outboard bearing aligned, and getting that engine running in good tune.
Thanks Joe-that’s exactly what I was meaning. Clint Eastwood was right and it’s so true. I’m 68 and have plenty on. I have an old friend Bill who has a larger engine 40hp I believe,who got it going when he was over 80. I have been offered even larger engines-a “spring injection” Blackstone and another unspecified,but declined as this one is quite big enough and besides I don’t have the room and time.
 

Peter S

Diamond
Joined
May 6, 2002
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Where I grew up in rural Northumberland,we used to “go to the pictures”each week. I think that was local jargon. The very earliest forerunner of the cinema was the Bioscope show. This was a travelling show ,typically the funeral of queen Victoria. The carbon arcs were supplied by a showmans’ generator called an Electric Light Engine. My late father rescued one in 1960 and it still exists-Savage No. 761 of 1900. only a few were built,as it was found the dynamo could be mounted on the smoke box of the road-locomotive.
Ted,

I hadn't heard of an Electric Light Engine, so did a search - Savage No. 761 is a beauty! Forerunner of modern portable gen-sets?

Savage Electric Light Engine No. 761.jpg Savage Electric Light Engine No. 761 02a.jpg
 

TedinNorfolk

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Norfolk, UK
Ted,

I hadn't heard of an Electric Light Engine, so did a search - Savage No. 761 is a beauty! Forerunner of modern portable gen-sets?

View attachment 398271 View attachment 398272
Certainly is a beauty -in hindsight we maybe should have kept it,but it needed extensive boiler work. And sweeping the tubes via the smoke box end was tricky. I remember it arriving at the back of the garden via the farmers field and an early Fordson. The governors,displacement lubricator,and feed pump were missing. We took a trip down to Savages at Kings Lynn and all the parts were still in stock! They were popular for about ten years and a few firms competed with Savages-Foster and Robey from Lincoln,Greens of Leeds and Davey,Paxman of Colchester.
 

Jim Christie

Titanium
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
L'Orignal, Ontario Canada
I will be interested to follow the progress of Ted's engine installation but can't add anything to the discussion about building the foundation .
I remembered seeing something about Crossley engines in an old book that I have .
I took a look and noticed it was about a Crossley gas engine and not an oil engine.
This is a link to the start of the pages about the Crossley engine
The book I have although it may be a different edition than this on line version
Apparently the American Crossley is very similar to those Made in the UK.
I did find some Crossley oil engines featured in this book
Their is some info. on their gas engines here
Asquith mentioned a transporter bridge that was powered by a Crossley engine .
I remembered his older thread about transporter bridges here ,
When I saw this one on page 55 of the pdf
Another one is mentioned about the 13 minute point of this video
This is the current time link but I'm not sure if it will work as I hope here.
Jim
 

Limy Sami

Diamond
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Location
Norfolk, UK
Limy Sami-I can’t see your contribution,which I would like to see. for some reason,somehow the site hides all your content. I don’t know what happened there. Perhaps the moderator or other expert could look into what has happened and rectify it,please.
I'm pretty computer illiterate, but as far as I'm aware it's nothing to do with me Ted, .......you haven't ''accidentally''put me on your ignore list of something?
 








 
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