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Full tear down and Rebuild of a 10EE Round Dial

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Nice job on you drawers! What is the gray divider material?

What do used Vidmars sell for in your area?

BTW, you photos are posting very small again. Don't forget to change the extension from "JPEG" to "JPG" before you post. There's an upgrade to the website in the work that will finally fix the dreaded "JPEG" issue.

Cal

Thanks Cal. The gray foam is Kaizen foam from FastCap here in Bellingham. It holds up pretty well. I have also been using it for my camera equipment flight cases for years now. It also doesn't disintegrate into goo like the cheap pull apart foam that Pelican and other have used in the past. The black and Blue stuff is laser cut by ToolBed in Germany. If your tools (All Snapon is) are in their system their layout software is awesome.

I picked up both of my Vidmar cabinets for $500 for the set. They seems like it was a pretty good deal, as most cabinets here seem to be in the $800 range. I did have to repaint them, but I used that as a test project for the paint I am using on the lathe. I think anything less than $100 a drawer seems like a steal these days, as I keep looking for more but no luck yet.

I totally forgot about the file extension issue here. I'll have to remember that for the next post. The forum software update will be really welcomed. I hope they use the same platform that Garage Journal is using these days as I really like it and find it way easier to use.

I got the rest of the ski gear sorted this am, just in time to get a call sending me to Cali next week for one last two day shoot. Then I'll finally be done for the year, unless I get sent to the Southern Hemisphere for a few weeks mid summer.

Now that I got all of the lathe stuff out of storage, I need to remind myself exactly of where I left off, and decide what is the best course of action to tackle next as I have a few things that need to get buttoned up before tearing into the next modules.

1: I need to do some touch up paint on the inside of the lathe after reinstalling the M/G unit.
2: I have a bunch of parts that are in Bondo that need to get sanded and painted... .the painting might get pushed back until after the CA trip as its still unusually cold here, and it needs to warm up before I can paint.
3: Apparently I had done some more fab work on a new terminal housing for the MG unit to house all of the items for the Steelman single phase conversion, but I didnt do a post at the time, so I need to figure out exactly where I am at with that. I do remember tho, one thing I was questioning is if I need to make any changes to the main contactor unit other than obviously only connecting two lines into it and not 3 as it will only be getting 240V from the wall.
 

Yan Wo

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Location
South Jordan, Utah, USA
Nice job on you drawers! What is the gray divider material?

What do used Vidmars sell for in your area?

BTW, you photos are posting very small again. Don't forget to change the extension from "JPEG" to "JPG" before you post. There's an upgrade to the website in the work that will finally fix the dreaded "JPEG" issue.

Cal

Thanks VERY much for this advice. I hadn't seen it before and have been frustrated with my small photos.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Ok, back to the lathe.

I last left off with the lathe with needing to finish the wiring for the MG unit and the conversion to single phase.

The factory terminal strip is nice in that it has a built in terminal label but that was in adequate in the factory configuration as several of the leads where terminated with an external splice in the cabinet. See the black tape covered mess bellow.
MGOrignalPanel.jpg
The factory terminal block also had a bit of damaged to it, so figured nows the time to replace it. The closest that I have found to the original is terminal blocks by Penn Union. They are rated for 75A, 600V DC, so more than adequate for this usage.
Terminalstips.jpg
But that doesn't solve the issue with not having enough terminals, and I will need even more with the conversion, so I ordered another terminal block with 4 sets of connections. I think that will be enough.

I also need to figure out the layout for the new junction box on the MG unit.
MGBox.jpg
The original factory box is on the left. Its way to small to fit the additional electronics the conversion requires. Before I left for work for the winter, I had purchases a larger box on the right that would have been ideal. However, it doesn't have enough clearance for the front panel of the machine. So I ordered the box in the middle. I made the cut outs for the conduit with a Klien knockout set.
Kockoutset.jpg
That knockout set is something I rarely use, but for the certain jobs its by far the best tool. It makes perfect smooth cuts in sheet metal and plastic. For those applications its way better than using a hole saw.

I'm going to wait till the last set of terminal blocks arrives, before I tackle the problem of the box layout.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
When I bought the lathe, it was missing both the upper and lower factory covers for the head stock end of the lathe. In its place it had a large single piece shop fab cover. The cover was well made and works well, but doesn't have those sexy Art Deco lines the factory covers had. Last fall, I found a factory upper cover, and then a week or so ago I found a factory lower cover that bsg was selling.

He did a great job of crating it.
Lowercoverrcrate.jpg
Whatever nails he used, did a great job of making sure the UPS monkeys didnt destroy, it but it was a bitch to get open even with a couple of crow bars.

I cleaned up the cover with a bunch of degreaser, and its in great shape.
Lowercover01.jpg
The cover has three tapered pins that allow you to align the cover vertically to the lathe.
Lowercover02.jpg
Raise or lower each taper pin to fine tune the fitment.

I removed the set screws holding the pins in.
Lowercover03.jpg
I then had to use a hammer and pin punch to tap them out. They where pretty stuck in there. So I cleaned each of the pins up with some scotch bright, and then cleaned out the holes on the panel with a reamer.

The dogs that receive the pins on the lathe are held in by set screws. This allows you to adjust the fitment of the cover horizontally to ensure it fits flush with the lathe casting.
Lowercover04jpeg.jpg


 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
With the set screws loose, I pulled the dogs out, so they I could easily use a tapered reamer to clean out the pin holes.
Lowercover05.jpg
Next, I set the covers pins into the lathe dogs. Awesome, everything lines up and it looks like the cover will fit perfectly. I then pushed the cover in flush with the lathe casting, and then removed the cover so that I could tighten the set screws on the dogs.

When I went to tighten each of the set screws I noticed the dogs where getting pushed further out. Shit.

Removing the set screws I could see the tail end of the shaft for the dogs was right at the edge of the setscrew. The dogs are too short!
Lowercover06.jpg
[FONT=interstate, sans-serif]On my lathe the shafts on the dogs measure .720" I'm going to need some that are at least 1" long. Hopefully I can find some on here, or Ebay. If you are reading this and have any I am very interested![/FONT]

IF I cant sort them, I am going to have to make something. There isn't enough room to simply drill another set of holes further out to receive the pins, and the distance from the center of the pin holes to the center of the round shaft is critical. So I think worse case I will get some ⅜ dowel pins and drill and tap them and the dog's shafts and use a piece of ¼-20 threaded rod to connect them to make extentions.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Being stumped on the lathe, I figured I would change gears and tackle another shop project. My wire storage has become a bit of a shit show.
Wiresystainer1.jpg
It was so unorganized I would waist money buying wire for specific projects, when I already had adequate wire on hand. So time to organize it. Almost all of my power tools, and misc shop tools are stored in Festool Systainers. I really like the system, as it keeps everything organized, and they are easy to stack / transport to a project. So I figured the ideal situation would be to store the wire in a systainer as well.

The systainers come in a variety of sizes, all with the same floor print, but different heights. I bought a #3 for this project as its a bit taller than the standard ones to fit more spools in it. I could have even gone with a #4 but figured fully loaded that would be pretty damn heavy.

I needed to make a spool holder to fit inside of the systainer. Problem is I cant access my cabinet saw with the lathe in the way, and there isn't room to get the breakdown cutting table I made out with the lathe in the middle of the garage.

[FONT=interstate, sans-serif]So I laid some foam insulation on the drive way, and used my track saw to rip some ½" baltic birch ply to size. This worked well as the track saw is more accurate than the cabinet saw anyways.[/FONT]
Wiresystainer2.jpg
If you are not familiar with Baltic Birch, its way higher quality than the ply you get at the typical box store. It has more plies making it more stable, has less voids, and is just really nice to work with.

Once the base was fitted
Wiresystainer3.jpg
I then cut the sides to size and used my Domino machine to make the holes for the dominos.
Wiresystainerr4.jpg
Of all of my Festool's the Domino is by far the best thing they make in my mind. It's kinda like a biscuit cutter, but instead it uses rectangular tenons that better align the pieces, and are extremely strong when glued up.

I then drilled holes for the ⅜" all thread rod that I am using to hold the spools and then inserted metal threaded inserts into the holes.
Finally I assembled it all.
Wiresystainer5.jpg
Less than an hour of work, I have an organized box of wire spools. To keep the spools from inadvertently unwinding, I drilled a set f two holes for each of the spools in the top cross member and pulled the wire up through it and tucked the loose end into the second hole.

I am really glad I went with the size 3 systainer box, as its pretty heavy fully loaded.
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
With the set screws loose, I pulled the dogs out, so they I could easily use a tapered reamer to clean out the pin holes.
View attachment 347908
Next, I set the covers pins into the lathe dogs. Awesome, everything lines up and it looks like the cover will fit perfectly. I then pushed the cover in flush with the lathe casting, and then removed the cover so that I could tighten the set screws on the dogs.

When I went to tighten each of the set screws I noticed the dogs where getting pushed further out. Shit.

Removing the set screws I could see the tail end of the shaft for the dogs was right at the edge of the setscrew. The dogs are too short!
View attachment 347909
[FONT=interstate, sans-serif]On my lathe the shafts on the dogs measure .720" I'm going to need some that are at least 1" long. Hopefully I can find some on here, or Ebay. If you are reading this and have any I am very interested![/FONT]

IF I cant sort them, I am going to have to make something. There isn't enough room to simply drill another set of holes further out to receive the pins, and the distance from the center of the pin holes to the center of the round shaft is critical. So I think worse case I will get some ⅜ dowel pins and drill and tap them and the dog's shafts and use a piece of ¼-20 threaded rod to connect them to make extentions.

Grant, I responded to your email about the dogs, I only have two and they do look longer than the ones you have?
I will post pictures and measurements for future reference!

BTW, I'm glad the cover arrived in good shape, the nails I used were spiral shanked nails used in building pallets that I got from HGR, a good investment!

Kevin
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Grant, I responded to your email about the dogs, I only have two and they do look longer than the ones you have?
I will post pictures and measurements for future reference!

BTW, I'm glad the cover arrived in good shape, the nails I used were spiral shanked nails used in building pallets that I got from HGR, a good investment!

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. What are the two that you have? Hopefully I can source the 3rd on here. Those spiral nails held as well as screws!

I am converting the lathe from 3Phase to single phase 240V using the Steelman method. As part of the conversion, I need to house a start and run capacitor. While one of the capacitors has built in mounting point the other one didnt, so I needed to fab up a way of installing it into the junction box. This is also the perfect project to get my mind back in a machining place after shooting photos all winter.

First step. I loosely drew out the rough idea on some AL bar stock I had laying around.
CapacitorMount1.jpg
I do not have a horizontal bandsaw, or a vertical metal one. I do have a wood bandsaw that I installed a bi-metal blade in, and it actually does a ok job with cutting aluminum. Not ideal, but its what I got.
CapacitorMount3.jpg
That cut is a bit rough, but thats too be expected. It would also help if I had the miter attachment for the bandsaw, but I dont.
CapacitorMount4.jpg
I put it in the mill vice and used a piece of brass rod on one side to clamp it.

CapacitorMount5.jpg


 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I then used my large 3" carbide face mill to square the block up
CapacitorMount6.jpg
All 6 sides nice and square.
CapacitorMount7.jpg
I then drilled
CapacitorMount8.jpg
Counterbored
CapacitorMount9.jpg
The two mounting holes, and the two clamping holes then got taped.
CapacitorMount10.jpg
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I then flipped the block 90 degrees and drilled a large hole with one of my Silver Deming drill bits to fit the capacitor. Finally I used a slitting saw in the mill to make the clamp.
CapacitorMount11.jpg
Thats the first time I have ever used a sliding saw, and it worked pretty damn well. Thats also where I screwed up the order of operations. I was so focused on the slitting saw, I forgot to use the ⅛ radius cutter to cut the edge profiles first.
CapacitorMount12.jpg
I put the screws In the clamp and, it actually wasn't that bad to cut the edge radius's. While its far from perfect, it will do the job I need it to perfectly.

With that done, I am now able to work on the layout of the junction box.
Junctionboxlayout1.jpg
I think thats the layout I am probably going to end up with, but I am going to think about it overnight before committing to it. Once I finalize it, I will mount the various components using rivitnuts. Time for a beer.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
...
View attachment 347908
...

Removing the set screws I could see the tail end of the shaft for the dogs was right at the edge of the setscrew. The dogs are too short!
View attachment 347909
On my lathe the shafts on the dogs measure .720" I'm going to need some that are at least 1" long. Hopefully I can find some on here, or Ebay. If you are reading this and have any I am very interested!

IF I cant sort them, I am going to have to make something. There isn't enough room to simply drill another set of holes further out to receive the pins, and the distance from the center of the pin holes to the center of the round shaft is critical. So I think worse case I will get some ⅜ dowel pins and drill and tap them and the dog's shafts and use a piece of ¼-20 threaded rod to connect them to make extentions.
I bet they're made up of a tombstone-shaped blocks with a dowel pin pressed in. If that's the case, it's a matter of removing (or machining out) the old pins and pressing in longer pins. Monarch usually cross-pinned things like that, so there may be a small tapered pin hidden there somewhere. Since your existing parts aren't usable, I suggest stripping the paint off of one and looking carefully for cross-pin. You can verify that dowel pins were used by checking the hardness of the pin with a file and compare that with the hardness of the tombstones.

Since the shapes of the tombstones are pretty random in shape, they were probably made by just grinding off the corners of a block of steel. It's a pretty simple thing to make from scratch if you have some steel of the right size laying around.

Cal
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I bet they're made up of a tombstone-shaped blocks with a dowel pin pressed in. If that's the case, it's a matter of removing (or machining out) the old pins and pressing in longer pins. Monarch usually cross-pinned things like that, so there may be a small tapered pin hidden there somewhere. Since your existing parts aren't usable, I suggest stripping the paint off of one and looking carefully for cross-pin. You can verify that dowel pins were used by checking the hardness of the pin with a file and compare that with the hardness of the tombstones.

Since the shapes of the tombstones are pretty random in shape, they were probably made by just grinding off the corners of a block of steel. It's a pretty simple thing to make from scratch if you have some steel of the right size laying around.

Cal

Thanks Cal. I will strip one of them and see if I can find the cross-pin. Since I know the holes are in the correct spot in relation to the shaft pins, it would be ideal if I could re-use / modify these to work.
 

thermite

Diamond

Oy! Talk about a labour of love to "do justice" to a sacred Monarch?

Impressive!

One of my (Rockwell) "Precise" uber-speed grinders came in the door with a similar "block mount", just larger..

Needs a nice colour Anodize now.

:)

"Too late now...." but.. "factory" cap clamps are about a dollar and a half, up, each, small qty prices from "the usual suspects" (Digi-Key, Mouser, Newark, etc..)

Many of us cheat, use an opaque metal cover for store bought boxes, (Hubbell-Weigmann...from Zoro ~ $20) so no one knows we used a conduit clamp $0.30 up..) - re-bent to fit, if need be - and/or worm gear hose clamp. Also cheap.
Either/both are easier and faster to find in stock at Big Box.

Tie-wraps or a bead of industrial adhesive also work, given electrolytic caps aren't fussy as to TIR, alignment axis, nor ordinarily run at high torque or RPM.

:)
 

bsg

Titanium
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Location
Imlay City, Michigan
Thanks Kevin. What are the two that you have? Hopefully I can source the 3rd on here. Those spiral nails held as well as screws!

I am converting the lathe from 3Phase to single phase 240V using the Steelman method. As part of the conversion, I need to house a start and run capacitor. While one of the capacitors has built in mounting point the other one didnt, so I needed to fab up a way of installing it into the junction box. This is also the perfect project to get my mind back in a machining place after shooting photos all winter.

First step. I loosely drew out the rough idea on some AL bar stock I had laying around.
View attachment 348036
I do not have a horizontal bandsaw, or a vertical metal one. I do have a wood bandsaw that I installed a bi-metal blade in, and it actually does a ok job with cutting aluminum. Not ideal, but its what I got.
View attachment 348037
That cut is a bit rough, but thats too be expected. It would also help if I had the miter attachment for the bandsaw, but I dont.
View attachment 348038
I put it in the mill vice and used a piece of brass rod on one side to clamp it.

View attachment 348039



The ones I have are the upper, lower front.....the cover stayed in place with just those two?

BTW, did you get the rest of your items?

Kevin
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Oy! Talk about a labour of love to "do justice" to a sacred Monarch?

Impressive!

One of my (Rockwell) "Precise" uber-speed grinders came in the door with a similar "block mount", just larger..

Needs a nice colour Anodize now.

:)

"Too late now...." but.. "factory" cap clamps are about a dollar and a half, up, each, small qty prices from "the usual suspects" (Digi-Key, Mouser, Newark, etc..)

Many of us cheat, use an opaque metal cover for store bought boxes, (Hubbell-Weigmann...from Zoro ~ $20) so no one knows we used a conduit clamp $0.30 up..) - re-bent to fit, if need be - and/or worm gear hose clamp. Also cheap.
Either/both are easier and faster to find in stock at Big Box.

Tie-wraps or a bead of industrial adhesive also work, given electrolytic caps aren't fussy as to TIR, alignment axis, nor ordinarily run at high torque or RPM.

:)

Thanks. Sure I could have gone the standard and cheaper route, but what fun would that be? Plus, this only cost me my time (and thats not worth much0 as it was left over material from another project.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I received a small order from McMaster today and in it where the ½" pull out down pins I ordered. Not wanting to leave the lower panel hanging out on the shop floor while I am away for work this weekend (pretty sure my 4 year will think its a bike jump) I decided to modify the dog tabs that I have to fit. Only problem Is I thought I had ordered 3 pins, but turns out I only ordered 2, So I'm 1 short...argh. I still think at least getting the last one from BSG will be a good idea.
Dogtabextended1.jpg
First step is to mill the exiting pin flat.
Dogtabextended2.jpg
I then found the pin center using my mill's DRO and a starrett edge finder and used a spot drill to center drill the pin.
Dogtabextended3.jpg
I then drilled it with a #7 drill bit, and then tapped the hole.
Dogtabextended4.jpg
I am become a really big fan of spiral taps. I first tapped the hole with it, then used a bottom tap to finish... that reminds me, I really should order some spiral bottom taps in the sizes I use most. I then added some lock tight and inserted a short length of all thread.
Dogtabextended5.jpg
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Dogtabextended6.jpg
The smallest these pullout pins come is .75 Which creates too long of an overall length to fit the bore on the lathe. So I had to machine .250 off of it with a end mill. I then used a small center drill to remove the bur from the hole.
Dogtabextended7.jpg
I then used a thread chaser to clean up the threads.
Dogtabextended8.jpg
All done. If it wasn't for how chowder up the existing pin was you would have a hard time telling I extended it.
Dogtabextended9.jpg
You can also see where I scraped the paint off trying to figure out if these dogs where made with a tapper pin holding in the pin shaft... no luck. Here is the extended version version the original.
Dogtabextended10.jpg
I covered the pins with dykem, so I can see where they are connecting with the set screws. It will also allow me to scribe a line once I get everything dialed in with the rear cover, so when I remove to paint, I'll know exactly how far to reinsert them.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Lower cover is on. The alignment to the lathe casting is damn perfect in the front, and very close with the exception of one section on the back. I can live with that. I still need a new pin for the lower front.
Dogtabextended11.jpg
Ok, lets see how it looks with the upper cover that I found last fall.
Dogtabextended12.jpg
It's amazing how much more the upper cover weighs... I'm guessing its 3x the bottom cover!

Shit, they dont line up.
Dogtabextended13.jpg
I'm curious if this lower cover which is off of a newer machine, is built to slightly different depth dimensions than the original cover. Can anyone with an original round dial lower cover measure this distance so I can compare?
Dogtabextended14.jpg
I might be able to make a few modifications to get the top cover to line up, but I won't know for sure until I get the head stock and gear box back on. The trim pieces are also out of alignment.
Dogtabextended15.jpg
At least those will be easier to modify to line up. 1 step forward. 2 steps back. classic.
 








 
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