Full tear down and Rebuild of a 10EE Round Dial

[daryl bane]

I wonder why it was shown "permanently closed" in red of all things on the Google Search.? Maybe recently rescued? It's good to know they are still around.

 

[GrantGunderson]

I wonder why it was shown "permanently closed" in red of all things on the Google Search.? Maybe recently rescued? It's good to know they are still around.

My guess is they closed during the Covid hysteria and the Google listing never got updated

 

[GrantGunderson]

I spent pretty much all of last week getting something like 25 parts ready for paint.

First, I sprayed a two part Epoxy etching primer on the castings.

I then proceeded with the body filler. Multiple coats of bond each sanded as flat as I could get them with 80 grit and a long Mirka hand block to keep things flat as possibl

Once I got things relatively close with the standard Bondo, I applied a two part glide coat, and then sanded with 240 Grit.

I used a sharpie to mark the low spots, so I could concentrate on building those back up.

Finally I spread one more layer of the standard Bondo glide coat over everything.

And then sanded to 400

What a never ending job. BTW the garage is a damn disaster right now, we have a kitchen remodel going on, so have been out of the house the last 10 days while we had the hardwood floors redone. After all of that I sprayed it with a Highbuild urethane primer yesterday and then wet sanded that with 600 grit... came out smooth as glass. Today I washed it down with the Lumabase oil and grease remover, let it dry then I sprayed it with a Sealer coat, then the metallic color coat, and things where looking amazing!
Finally starting to feel a bit more confident in the whole process. I then went to spray the 2K clear coat and everything went south in a hurry. I started with the back side of the head stock and it looked great. Soon as I moved to the front, it went to hell.

I started to get a massive amount of orange peel. Not just one one of the parts, but all of them. I checked the gun settings after I first noticed it and it the same that I have been using.

The TDS for the Lumabase products I am using, clear state that if there is an issue with the polly, to not stop until there is at least two coats on. In stead of the recommended 15 min flash, I gave it 20 and did another coat.

That only made it worse. Its the exact same paint system I used on the rest of it, I followed the same process to a "T" and I know the mix ratio was dead on using my Sata mixing cups. Only thing different was I opened a fresh can of Poly and a fresh can of Activator. 2+ hours later the Poly still hasn't really set up and you can see it is sagging. Something is obviously F'd. Either I didnt give the color enough time to finish flashing (did it by the book with a timer and at above the recommended temp), or the poly product is bad. It was weird when I mixed It, you couldn't really see it changing like I have been able to in the past.

It usually stiffens up quite quickly. Its been almost 5 hours now and its still fully wet.

So my thoughts are to let it sit overnight. Hopefully it hardens and is thick enough I can sand smooth with a progression of 1K~4K grits and then polish. Otherwise, I need to aggressively remove it, and start over with either the Ureathane primer or the Sealer.

If it doesn't harden, my thoughts are to wash it all off with Acetone... that will be a messy job!

 

[m-lud]

That orange peel appearance looks more like what is called fisheye. It's caused by contamination from products with silicone in them. You may have to sand all of that paint down to primer to get rid of it, You can't re-paint over it.
If it's not completely dry in the morning it would be best to wash it off and get a fresh start.
Avoid any products with silicone anywhere near your paint area or on anything related to your air supply. Your washdown should have removed any oil. Silicone is hard to clean off.

Fish Eye Eliminator Pint

Eases surface tension, allows coating to flow properly

www.eastwood.com

 

[m-lud]

That orange peel appearance looks more like what is called fisheye. It's caused by contamination from products with silicone in them. You may have to sand all of that paint down to primer to get rid of it, You can't re-paint over it.
If it's not completely dry in the morning it would be best to wash it off and get a fresh start.
Avoid any products with silicone anywhere near your paint area or on anything related to your air supply. Your washdown should have removed any oil. Silicone is hard to clean off.

Fish Eye Eliminator Pint

Eases surface tension, allows coating to flow properly

www.eastwood.com

Could you be getting cross contamination from products being used on your home remodeling?

 

[GrantGunderson]

Hey guys,

I really dont think its contamination. There was no issues with any of the other coats that when on yesterday, and there has been no silicone, or oil used since before the castings where hot stripped. All of the home remodel stuff has been going / coming from the other side of the house. The garage is just full from storing all of our stuff during that process.

Checking the parts this morning, and the poly still hasn't set up at all. I am almost certain it was a bad can of activator. Both the activator and the poly cans where unopened, but have been sitting on a shelf in the garage for a year. So thinking the can of activator must have expired.

I used brush cleaner and some rags and it wiped the polly right off and left the color base coat pretty mostly intact.


So that pretty much solidifies to me it was bad activator. The polly didnt kick / crosslink at all. So thankfully all of the body work is intact and I now have a very expensive "guide coat" top wet sand with 600. Once it is all wet sanded, I will clean it twice with the wax and grease remover, then do the Sealer, Color and poly coats again, but using brand new Polly from the store. Not using these cans again! Apparently I am now going to be making lemons out of lemonade this week.

 

[GrantGunderson]

Well after the disaster with the clear coat, I took the remnants of those cans down to the local auto body supply shop where I have been purchasing my paint, and explained to them what happened. They told me they did in fact have a bad batch, and they credited me for it. Ok thats fine and dandy, but I still needed some clear, but they where fully sold out of the 2K 4:1 mix clear I was using. Evidently they had pulled of the catalyst form there shelves and the mfg wasn't supposed to make another batch for 2+ months according to them. Well shit, thats not going to work with my time schedule. So I ended up buying the Lumabase 3K 2:1 clear. This is a high-solids clear, so should be even more durable than what I was using. Problem is they only have it in gallons, and after the credit for the 4:1 stuff it still cost me $260 ouch.

I did another batch of parts and re-painted the first set.


It aint perfect, as I was painting outside in a tent and still got some particulate fall out on it from all of the wildfire smoke in the air, but I am damn happy with it. I can say tis the best of my ability given that I have to paint in an uncontrolled environment. I cranked the heater in the garage to 80 and let it cure for a few days. BTW the silicone painters plugs I used did a great job of keeping the bores paint free.

All thats left to paint now is the two drive end panels.

In order to properly strip them, I needed to remove these vent screens. Each is held on by 8 drive screws.

A pin punch from the backside and a bunch of tapping with a hammer, eventually drove them all out. I now have it stripped and sanded. Hopefully I will get the two part epoxy primer on today and can then start the body work on it tomorrow...

Moving along I can start to work on getting the Headstock back on the lathe. I think it would make more sense to wait to install it until I get it fully assembled with the spindle, but I am out of workbench space, and quite frankly I feel its less likely to get scratched on the lathe then the shop floor with my 5 year old rinding his bike into the garage.

First thing to go back on, is this oil deflector plate that goes under the rear side of the headstock. I had to file down the screw head to make sure it was fully flat with the plate.

I then cleaned up the two alignment pins for the headstock with some grey scotch bright.

I then coated them with some Tef-Gel antisieze and tapped them into the holes in the bed, and then gave the area under where the headstock goes a light coating of way oil.

The gear-end clamps for the headstock are getting new ⅜-24x1.25 stainless bolts coated with Tea-Gel, and grade 8 washers. These have to get installed into the base of the headstock before lifting it on.

My buddy came by and helped me lift it on after we had a few beers. The alignment pins in front and the rear "V" way aligns the headstock to the base. I then tightened the rear clamps.

 

[GrantGunderson]

The front headstock clamp bracket uses two, ½-2" stainless bolts coated in tea-gel and two grade 8 washers.

FYI for those that dont know this, washers always have a flat, square edged side, this always faces the part, the side with the rounded edges and in the case of these grade 8 washers the text, faces out towards the bolt head. With the front clamp bracket in place the headstock is now secured. Once I get the spindle in, I will have to buy a "test bar" -Anyone have recommendations? So that I can check the headstock alignment, I may need to very slightly shift the rear of it one way or the other.

I then pulled the wiring for the drum switch up through the hole in the case of the headstock cavity. This is to the right of the bore for the switch it's self, and its a pain in the ass to get those wires snaked through, especially since I already had the termainals on them. I only lost minimal blood doing it.

Main contactor cover back on. There is a very slight difference in the fitting of the head stock casting over it. Either I need to tweak the headstock alignment slightly, or its just a difference in how they where cast. WE will see once I get a test bar.

I had taken apart the drum switch and cleaned it in my ultrasonic. I still would like to fine a replacement as some of the contacts are very worn. Still useable but not ideal. The main body is held together by two long contersinked screws.

Here is the general layout for the rest of it The second set of long countersink screws hold the switch unit together as well as mount it to the rear plate cover.

All together minus the contacts.

I then chased all of the threaded holes in the head stock, the switch uses an 8-32 thread, since they dont make thread chasers this small I used a tap.

Elsewhere with the larger threads I could use my thread chaser tap. I wanted to do this now, while the headstock was empty to prevent any contaminations from chasing the threads.

Note, some of these where clearly drilled by hand by the factory.... thats no where close to square!

 

[GrantGunderson]

Despite having the casting dipped and hot stripped, there was still a ton of crap in the threads!
Ok back to the switch.

I had scribed the switch connections on it prior to disassembly, so it was just a matter of matching things up to wire it back together.

The switch assembly gets installed with the two small mounting screws for it facing the gear end of the lathe. Its retained by 4 stainless countersunk screws coated in Tefgel. I didnt fully crank them down at this stage, so I could align the front side of the switch assembly with it

Here is the layout for the front side of the switch. Since this doesn't get lubed in operation, I coated the shaft with super lube. I am using. new stainless taper pin as well. Its a #2

With everything lined up, I used a #2 taper pin reamer to clean up the bore.

I supported the shaft on V-blocks and coated the pin with tefgel and tapped it home. I then filed the long end flush with the shaft.

I had gotten some body filler into the bore holes for the large taper pin that holds the handle on. I used my PB-swiss hand held reamer to clean it out.

The handle has a ball detent. The factory spring was quite weak, so I went to my stock of random springs and found one that was a correct fit. Its better than the factory one, but could honestly be a bit stronger.

I put a bunch of super lube in the bore, and inserted the spring.

Followed by the ball. I measured it, in case it ever goes missing. Its 0.2190 in diameter. I then coated the large taper pin with tefgel and using a brass drift drove it in, securing the handle over the detent.

 

[GrantGunderson]

Now I realized I have a bit of a problem on my hands.

There is supposed to be a threaded hole under the spindle mount for a setscrew to secure the switch assembly. Apparently the silicone paint plug had gotten pushed in to far and it got bonded over. No sign of it at all. Pressing with my finger (revealed the other hidden plugs) was to no avail. The bore is completely lost. Thinking I may have to re-drill it, I used a depth mic, to measure where the bore enters the shaft bore for the switch. I then translated that to the front.

FYI, thats not a scratch, its the reflection of the pick in the paint! I then went to mark the location using a pick with the intent of having to center punch it for drilling next. Luck was apparently on my side and the pick went directly though the Bondo and right into the silicone plug.

I was able to remove the silicone plug. Turns out the setscrew I had left in there to keep the plug from going too deep, was intact too deep.

There is a detent for the lock plate as well. It also got a new spring and bunch of super lube.

The lock plate is quite worn. If I ever find a replacement I will switch it out, or when I have more time I will make a new one, but it does work still. Once it was secured with the 4 countersunk screws I installed the plunger for the detent and lubed the plate with super lube as well.

The handle assembly then gets slid in, and mates with the with in the rear. I then tightened down the Stainless set screw in the bed side of the head stock casting that secures it, followed by giving the rear switch plate its finally torque now that its aligned. Finally there is a dog point setscrew, followed by a Stainless hollow set screw that goes into the bottom of the switch plate assembly to keep it from over traveling. Man does it feel good to get some parts back together.

 

[rakort]

Get those parts off the bench!!! Gheesh

 

[GrantGunderson]

Get those parts off the bench!!! Gheesh

I'm working on it, but needed to give the poly time to cure. Full cure is 7+ days since I dont maintain the shop at 70+ at night. Time is a ticking, as I have a hand surgery scheduled for the 26th. So wont be able to do much after that.

 

[grounding]

View attachment 374561
I then used a tiny Starrett starter punch to tap the Woodruff key out.
View attachment 374562
It's quite small.
View attachment 374563
I could then press the Feed Rod Clutch shaft out of the bearing assembly. There is a ground washer on the outside of the plate.
View attachment 374564
I then used a drift in my arbor press to push the bearing stack out.
View attachment 374565
It uses two New Departure C 8503 Bearings. Anyone know the difference between the C and WC versions?
View attachment 374566
There is a spacer ring between the bearings that the long dog point setscrews hold in place.
View attachment 374567
I then removed the oil seal from the upper shaft bore using a blind bearing puller.
View attachment 374568
It is a Victor 60318 Evidently a Federal-Mogul Encased Seal 470045 50045S 60318 H296 00044 5330001790861 is a cross reference for it
View attachment 374569
Here is the whole assembly laid out.

My bearings were were both New Departure, C87503.

 

[Cal Haines]

...

I then chased all of the threaded holes in the head stock, the switch uses an 8-32 thread, since they dont make thread chasers this small I used a tap.

I've used thread forming taps for this, they don't have flutes and are less likely to cross-thread a hole. But be careful, you don't want to snap one off in the hole!

 

[rakort]

I've used thread forming taps for this, they don't have flutes and are less likely to cross-thread a hole. But be careful, you don't want to snap one off in the hole!

That would be a bad day snapping one off!, forming or fluted! Why would a forming tap be better when we are trying to clean the hole out sans the point about the potential cross threading?

 

[Cal Haines]

That would be a bad day snapping one off!, forming or fluted! Why would a forming tap be better when we are trying to clean the hole out sans the point about the potential cross threading?

They're more like a screw, so they'll follow existing threads. In my experience, it's pretty easy to get crooked or whatever with a fluted tap and start cutting new threads, particularly with small, fine threads. And if you're working on a hole that wasn't tapped square to begin with, it's easy to get a bad start. A thread forming tap wouldn't be a good choice if the hole is full of gunk, but if you just want to refresh the threads, they work great. The only time I had a problem was with a tap that I had dropped. It looked fine, but was probably cracked and snapped off, fortunately well above the hole and it was easy to remove.

I have small wire brushes that I run into holes to clean out debris before I try any sort of re-threading tap. I also use a can of compressed air to blow the hole out before starting.

 

[GrantGunderson]

I've used thread forming taps for this, they don't have flutes and are less likely to cross-thread a hole. But be careful, you don't want to snap one off in the hole!

Thanks Cal. Added some to the next McMaster order. Been cranking away the last few days.

Got the insides of both the upper and lower drive side covers painted, and reattached the screens for the lower section

It used #7 drive screws to attach.

I talked to the guys at the local chrome shop, they are booked 3+ months out right now and he told me he wouldn't even give me a quote for at least another 6 weeks until they get a bit more caught up... so I clear coated the shinny bits that I had polished. Thinking these will have to wait till next summer to get chromed, but hopefully I can at least get the dial plaques chromed this winter.

Next up is getting some parts back on the lathe, I need to clear off some bench space! Note how the factory hole for the accent trim, is no where near centered. When I did the body work on these, I purposely filled the holes from the front with Bondo, as the plan was to drill new larger holes anyways, as I am mounting the accent pieces I made with blind holes, so there will be no fasteners showing from the front.

Some blue painters tape protected the my froth pain job. I then used the bracket I made to hold the accent plates in the mill vise as a drill template for them.

Laid them out, drilled them using the bracket from the front to keep the paint from chipping.

The locking cams got a nice coat of superlube on the shafts and bearing surfaces.

I then lined up the cams with their matting knobs, and cleaned out the taper pin holes with a #1 tapper pin reamer. FYI these use a #1 x 1" tapper pin.

I am using all new stainless steel taper pins, and I coated them with some Tea-Gel before I inserted them to make the removal easier for the next guy (most likely me). I pushed the pins partway in then drove them home with a brass pin punch.

There was no factory accent pieces on the tailstock end cover. I figured I should add some. I laid out the center section first, and drilled the first hole and inserted a ¼-20 screw in it.

 

[GrantGunderson]

The drill jig drops onto the screw, I square it up then use a transfer punch to mark the hole location.

I then repeated for the other two accent pieces.

I had family in town, so this was as far as I got installing the accent pieces and access panels before they woke up in the am. I do plan to get the start switch plaque and stop switch chromed.

My dad came up to visit for my birthday this weekend. It was a perfect excuse for Stian to finish the truck he made all by himself in the garage. With Dad's supervision he cut all of the blocks for the truck, and he used a hole saw in the Bridgeport to make the wheels. Not bad for a 5 year old. With lathe parts covering all of my work benches, a stack of Festool sustainers made a temporary workbench for Grandpa to attache the axels that Stian had cut and then threaded for the acorn nuts.

Success. A very happy kid and Grandpa!... and a proud Dad!

Back to the lathe. time to work on assembling the headstock, while I wait for Bondo to dry on the head stock end covers.

First to go back in is the Clutch Fork Rack assembly. Here it is all laid out after I cleaned it in the ultrasonic, and gave it a thin coating of Mobile DTE heavy / Medium to keep the parts from rusting.

The reverse Idler stud that gets pressed into the end of the headstock to hold the shaft in place, was the m out difficult part of the entire tear down to remove. It had a press fit plug inside of it that I had to drill and tap to remove. I need to plug this, so the plan is remove it, then tap the hole for a threaded plug.

That plug easily pressed out with the Arbor Press.

That leaves a .6870 bore. Closet size to it is a 20mm tap, but I dont have one that size and dont want to purchase one if I can avoid it. So the plan is to drill it out and tap with with a ¾ NPT thread to take a pipe plug, since I have that tap on hand and its not too far off in size. I actually found on McMaster they have threaded pipe plugs with standard thread adapters that will work perfectly for my sledgehammer for future removal if needed. So thats the plan.

Since I dont have a working lathe yet, I need to bore the hole out for the pipe tap. It needs to be a 59/64" hole. This was a good excuse to practice dialing in the hole with my dial indicator, I actually got it with in =/- .0005" wit ha full sweep of the needle. I'll take that!

 

[GrantGunderson]

I worked my way up to the final dimension using 4 drill bits. This was my first time using Anchor lube. I'm pretty impressed with it for this. It actually stays put and makes a hell of a lot less mess than the tap magic stuff I have been using.

I couldn't find my good rigid ¾ tap that I used on the drain holes for the bed... I really need to sort out my plumbing tools. The only place in town that was open on Sunday and had any pipe taps was Horror Freight... so I gave their's a try. I was only able to get 3 threads cut into the bore before I could no longer advance the tap, despite having to reverse and break the chips each ¼ turn. I have had issues with pipe taps being difficult to cut threads with due to their tapper in the past, but this is ridiculous. I need to either find my good tap, and try it again, or go to plan "B" and use a standard tap.....

 

[Cal Haines]

View attachment 377468
I couldn't find my good rigid ¾ tap that I used on the drain holes for the bed... I really need to sort out my plumbing tools. The only place in town that was open on Sunday and had any pipe taps was Horror Freight... so I gave their's a try. I was only able to get 3 threads cut into the bore before I could no longer advance the tap, despite having to reverse and break the chips each ¼ turn. I have had issues with pipe taps being difficult to cut threads with due to their tapper in the past, but this is ridiculous. I need to either find my good tap, and try it again, or go to plan "B" and use a standard tap.....

You're driving a tapered thread into a cylindrical hole, so of course it gets harder as you go along. One thing that might help is to use a pipe reamer to remove some of the excess material at the large end. There are also interrupted thread pipe taps that basically have every other tooth removed to cut down on the friction. They're pretty pricey; it might work to grind off every other tooth to make your own.