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Fusion 360 RIPS OFF subscription customers by removing multiaxis tool paths

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
LoLz @ the autodeskers all feeling very bad for their customers and admitting that it was all badly handled.
Here's a thought....do something about it!
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
Nah, that was exactly their plan.
If you're somehow able to find thread from years ago when Fusion first started, you'll see plenty of people myself included saying this very thing. They lure people in with a super low price point, wait a few years then raise prices. The people who depend on the online subscription model will be forced to pony up or lose everything they've worked on.
Just quoting this again as it needs to be said.
Again.
100%
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
The problem is that Fusion's price is going up to match NX/MasterCAM/Esprit, not the other way around. Perhaps it wasn't their goal from the get go, but it sure seems like the plan was to start with a nice low price to pull in users and then when the capability starts to build up raise the price slowly to match the incumbents.

Perhaps if you were not paying attention? Autodesk was always upfront that Fusion would increase in cost as the feature set grew. They have also grandfathered everyone in at whatever price point they entered into the platform at. Even the topic that started this hyperbolic thread? Autodesk grandfathered everyone in and nobody is losing anything.

Again - their entire strategy has been Clayton Christensen, basically a masterclass in Disruption theory. They have never made this strategy a secret or lied to anyone about it - start at the low end with the minimum viable product, start selling it to the low-end/hobby market, build it up over time to be a top-tier contender. I don't know why people think that it is some stunning insight that the price of Fusion was going to rise in-step with it's capabilities.

The biggest change I've seen caused by fusion is that small shops or home gamers who previously had stolen a copy of solidworks/mastercam now are using fusion.

And what survey of the market or database are you using to draw that conclusion?

So I go into a lot of shops. 50% are MasterCAM... but those MasterCAM users have not evaluated their CAD/CAM situation for many years. Fusion is running at about 30% of them, and with the exception of one shop that moved to NX, everyone who has sat down to refresh their CAD/CAM situation has gone with Fusion. NX is about 15% and Gibs (!) is in a handful of Idaho guys shops (the tech school apparently is all Gibs, so that flows to the local industry).

The arguments about subscription bear almost no weight with the shop owners I've talked with. MasterCAM + SolidWorks has a 10 year TCO of over $50,000. Straight Fusion has a TCO of $3,600. You are a lunatic if you think that your perpetual license benefits will have an ROI that can ever possibly justify a 1300% cost increase over Fusion. Yadda yadda, Autodesk will hold you hostage, you can lose access to your files, clouds bad... These guys would rather buy their wives a Porsche Macan with the money they saved. Real world? The anti Autodesk arguments evaporate once the actual costs are even glanced at, it isn't even close.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
Perhaps I'm being unfair. I've never seen it at a big shop. However I do deal mostly with ITAR stuff so obviously none of them would be using it.

As far as I can tell, only 3 things are keeping MC/SW afloat:

- ITAR compliance.
- Full 5 axis/complex turning/etc.
- Momentum.

MasterCAM and SolidWorks are boned in the long-term. Fusion is absolutely capable of any 3+2 axis part or turning you can throw at it, and the rest is in very active development and has all the guts from FeatureCAM and PowerMill just waiting to be integrated. ITAR compliance is slated to eventually be do-able with Fusion one way or another, so once that box is ticked?

MasterCAM/SW have momentum as their only defensive moat, and they are super screwed here. Why? Lets look at 10 years of total ownership cost, including maintenance, for basic 3 axis CAD + CAM:

- SW/MC: $69,800 ($5k + $2k/yr for SolidWorks, $18k + $3.2k/yr for MasterCAM).
- NX 3 Axis CAD/CAM Node Locked: $60,400
- Fusion 360: $3,960

I was not kidding when I said the cost difference would let the shop owner buy their wife a Porsche Macan...
Is SW/MC a better piece of software than Fusion? IDK - neither MC or SW have done much in innovation in the last 5+ years. NX CAM is obviously better, and very actively developed, and it is the most advanced CAD in the world... Very very few shops are going to make a positive ROI with that extra $54k going to a seat of NX over Fusion though.

And let us say you are a weirdo who buys a piece of software stripped of maintenance, so what about the simple single license cost compared to Fusion?

SW+MC costs you 58 years of Fusion
NX is 70 years of Fusion

IDK if you all can do math, but Autodesk has a LONG way to go before they start holding their customers hostages with prices on-par with the incumbents.


You want to keep arguing Fusion is dumb? Subscriptions suck? Fine... make realistic arguments that actually take the absurd price difference into account and explain to me why spending 50x for a "perpetual" license is the smarter play.
 
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LOTT

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
As far as I can tell, only 3 things are keeping MC/SW afloat:

- ITAR compliance.
- Full 5 axis/complex turning/etc.
- Momentum.

MasterCAM and SolidWorks are boned in the long-term. Fusion is absolutely capable of any 3+2 axis part or turning you can throw at it, and the rest is in very active development and has all the guts from FeatureCAM and PowerMill just waiting to be integrated. ITAR compliance is slated to eventually be do-able with Fusion one way or another, so once that box is ticked?

MasterCAM/SW have momentum as their only defensive moat, and they are super screwed here. Why? Lets look at 10 years of total ownership cost, including maintenance, for basic 3 axis CAD + CAM:

- SW/MC: $69,800 ($5k + $2k/yr for SolidWorks, $18k + $3.2k/yr for MasterCAM).
- NX 3 Axis CAD/CAM Node Locked: $60,400
- Fusion 360: $3,960

I was not kidding when I said the cost difference would let his shop owner buy their wife a Porsche Macan...
Is SW/MC a better piece of software than Fusion? IDK - neither package has done much in the last 5+ years. NX is obviously better, and very actively developed, and the most advanced CAD in the world... Very very few shops are going to make a positive ROI with that extra $54k though.
Greg nailed it, my situation exactly. Except instead of a Porsche I bought another Speedio.

Don't tell my wife the Porsche was an option.....
 

SeymourDumore

Diamond
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
CT
Greg nailed it, my situation exactly.

What are you making exactly that can be properly done using a Basic Fusion 360 subscription for a puny $396/year, that does not require any one of the Extensions?
Washers on a CNC punch press?

Mind you, this whole thread is about people on Basic subscription being suddenly unable to use stuff they were promised and paid for just because ADSK made a policy change?

Or to continue the demeaning washer example from above, what-if you all of a sudden need to make a different size washer, and the "nesting" tool which was part of the Basic
subscription is now only available with the "Nesting and Fabrication Extension" for a puny $1600 ( $1120 today ) / year and your shit ain't grandfathered ?

'Cos at that rate, you will be looking at a Yugo instead or a Porsche before long!
( on the upside, your wife won't give a shit about the option ... )
 

goooose

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Location
canada
As far as I can tell, only 3 things are keeping MC/SW afloat:

- ITAR compliance.
- Full 5 axis/complex turning/etc.
- Momentum.

MasterCAM and SolidWorks are boned in the long-term. Fusion is absolutely capable of any 3+2 axis part or turning you can throw at it, and the rest is in very active development and has all the guts from FeatureCAM and PowerMill just waiting to be integrated. ITAR compliance is slated to eventually be do-able with Fusion one way or another, so once that box is ticked?

MasterCAM/SW have momentum as their only defensive moat, and they are super screwed here. Why? Lets look at 10 years of total ownership cost, including maintenance, for basic 3 axis CAD + CAM:

- SW/MC: $69,800 ($5k + $2k/yr for SolidWorks, $18k + $3.2k/yr for MasterCAM).
- NX 3 Axis CAD/CAM Node Locked: $60,400
- Fusion 360: $3,960

I was not kidding when I said the cost difference would let the shop owner buy their wife a Porsche Macan...
Is SW/MC a better piece of software than Fusion? IDK - neither MC or SW have done much in innovation in the last 5+ years. NX CAM is obviously better, and very actively developed, and it is the most advanced CAD in the world... Very very few shops are going to make a positive ROI with that extra $54k going to a seat of NX over Fusion though.

And let us say you are a weirdo who buys a piece of software stripped of maintenance, so what about the simple single license cost compared to Fusion?

SW+MC costs you 58 years of Fusion
NX is 70 years of Fusion

IDK if you all can do math, but Autodesk has a LONG way to go before they start holding their customers hostages with prices on-par with the incumbents.


You want to keep arguing Fusion is dumb? Subscriptions suck? Fine... make realistic arguments that actually take the absurd price difference into account and explain to me why spending 50x for a "perpetual" license is the smarter play.
All this pom pom shaking for Fusion, so tell us why you needed to buy NX? lol You must be as dumb as the rest of us, right?

And sticking a fork in Mastercam when they were acquired by a company 4x the size of autodesk?

Your numbers are a bit off too. Lets say 3 programmers (day/afternoon/midnight shifts) plus a manager needing access to the software, and lets not forget many shops run only Mastercam for CAD and CAM. Using your values above for 10 years, Mastercam only needs one seat = $47k, Fusion needs 4 accounts, 1 for each user = $40k. I think for a difference of $60 a month, and the flexibility/reassurance of perpetual, Mastercam wins. And that is only comparing price. There are many, many other factors that should go into choosing software.
 

LOTT

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
What are you making exactly that can be properly done using a Basic Fusion 360 subscription for a puny $396/year, that does not require any one of the Extensions?
Washers on a CNC punch press?

Mind you, this whole thread is about people on Basic subscription being suddenly unable to use stuff they were promised and paid for just because ADSK made a policy change?

Or to continue the demeaning washer example from above, what-if you all of a sudden need to make a different size washer, and the "nesting" tool which was part of the Basic
subscription is now only available with the "Nesting and Fabrication Extension" for a puny $1600 ( $1120 today ) / year and your shit ain't grandfathered ?

'Cos at that rate, you will be looking at a Yugo instead or a Porsche before long!
( on the upside, your wife won't give a shit about the option ... )
We make a line of specialty tools for our brand, and then design and build a variety of electronic enclosures, clamps, etc for other companies serving the same end customers. I don't post it here because I want to be able to continue to ask dumb questions on the forum without the world knowing my brand is run by some red-neck hacks making it up as we go along... The CAM is mainly 3 and 3+1 mill, and the occasional profile on the lathe but that is mostly fingercam'd.

We bootstrapped, and Fusion was a no-brainer to start. Back then it was free for small businesses with no restricted features. Last year I felt like we had the reached the point in machines and revenue to justify the "Pro" software, and looked at other options. SolidWorks and SolidCam came out on top, so I got a demo and their introductory training. I spent quite a bit of time learning it in that month, but the outcome was that every time I saw a feature on SW I'd do some research on Fusion, and it had the same abilities. The end result was I got better on Fusion. Same with SolidCam, there just wasn't any advantage TO MY PARTS. (Note the Underline, Bold, Caps, and Italics) And the SW/SC combo was clunkier, more saving and loading and such.

Now, a disclaimer- after deciding not to buy SW/SC I did buy a year subscription to the Manufacturing Subscription, mainly for Steep and Shallow and the Modify Tool Paths function (The 4th work I do is all indexing, just the nature of our parts). Point being if something has moved from basic sub to extension in the last six months I wouldn't be able to tell.

At the end of the day I couldn't see any actual benefit to switching, in day to day operation. And some other features in Fusion like the Flat toolpath has gotten a lot better, to the point I don't know that we need the Extension in the first place.

We're grandfathered at about $312 for the basic access if I remember correctly, and then maybe $900 for the extension, about $1,200 a year. SW/SC would have been something like $16,000 up front and then $2,500 a year for maintenance. That maintenance was what pushed me over the edge, when the "rent" on the other option is less.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
All this pom pom shaking for Fusion, so tell us why you needed to buy NX? lol You must be as dumb as the rest of us, right?

I use NX because it is de-facto the best CAD in the world. Do I need it? Nope! Do I enjoy using it? Absolutely. It makes it very easy for my low-skill ass to do incredible things. My particular case is unique in that I had 2 jobs in quick succession that paid the absurd price for it and NX was the only thing that would solve the particular set of problems. I readily admit that the yearly maintenance bill can be kind of painful, because my ongoing ROI with NX is marginal.

I also drive 30,000 miles a year. Could I have bought a Toyota to do this? Sure. But I paid a little more and I bought an Audi because if I am going to spend a huge chunk of my life in the thing, being a little nicer matters a lot. I still think Toyota is probably the best automotive company in the world and I respect the hell out of the products (I also miss my 4 Runner).

All the arguments you guys have about Fusion? I could make a similar case against NX around the absolutely absurd pricing... which is why I pom pom for Fusion - I need them to be successful because competition makes everything better. I've flat out told the NX team to buy a seat of Fusion and start making their Porsche Macan as functional as the Lime Scooter (and they are actually doing it!... though I don't think I was responsible, just my usual annoying self).

And let's all face it - the Autodicks Club of PM doesn't just make rational arguments that Fusion isn't a good idea - you guys are almost offended by it's existence and it is obvious you think Fusion users are dumb dumbs. The straight-up most advanced, highest-end, cost is no object shop I've ever set foot in, doing the most insane parts in turnaround times measured in hours? 100% Fusion.


And sticking a fork in Mastercam when they were acquired by a company 4x the size of autodesk?

A company where most of the revenue comes from mining. None of us know precisely what the exact business strategy behind the acquisition was. Did they just have cash they needed to spend? Was it the marketing department driving the acquisition to sell tooling? Is it a tech play they will leverage to sell more tools?

The Sandvik acquisition is interesting because Sandvik is in a unique position to derive value from MasterCAM that isn't purely from software seat revenue.

Your numbers are a bit off too. Lets say 3 programmers (day/afternoon/midnight shifts) plus a manager needing access to the software, and lets not forget many shops run only Mastercam for CAD and CAM. Using your values above for 10 years, Mastercam only needs one seat = $47k, Fusion needs 4 accounts, 1 for each user = $40k. I think for a difference of $60 a month, and the flexibility/reassurance of perpetual, Mastercam wins. And that is only comparing price. There are many, many other factors that should go into choosing software.

If you want me to admit that there are exceptions to my example, you got me! That doesn't belay the point that the TCO of Fusion is still literally an order of magnitude lower than the alternatives.
 

wheelieking71

Diamond
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Location
Gilbert, AZ
You are a lunatic if you think that your perpetual license benefits will have an ROI that can ever possibly justify a 1300% cost increase over Fusion. Yadda yadda, Autodesk will hold you hostage, you can lose access to your files, clouds bad... These guys would rather buy their wives a Porsche Macan with the money they saved. Real world? The anti Autodesk arguments evaporate once the actual costs are even glanced at, it isn't even close.
And you are a lunatic if you think the cost and PITA of your Snap-On has any value over Carlyle purchased at NAPA.
FWIW: I own tons of Snap-On stuff. Just making a point.
(even Snap-On ain't what it used to be. Their screwdrivers suck now!)

CAD/CAM is nothing more than a tool. I prefer my tools reliable with no strings attached. Just always there in the drawer ready to go, whenever I need it.
Hasp/Dongle is the only way that happens with CAD/CAM.
 
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len_1962

Stainless
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
Tempe
All this pom pom shaking for Fusion, so tell us why you needed to buy NX? lol You must be as dumb as the rest of us, right?

And sticking a fork in Mastercam when they were acquired by a company 4x the size of autodesk?

Your numbers are a bit off too. Lets say 3 programmers (day/afternoon/midnight shifts) plus a manager needing access to the software, and lets not forget many shops run only Mastercam for CAD and CAM. Using your values above for 10 years, Mastercam only needs one seat = $47k, Fusion needs 4 accounts, 1 for each user = $40k. I think for a difference of $60 a month, and the flexibility/reassurance of perpetual, Mastercam wins. And that is only comparing price. There are many, many other factors that should go into choosing software.

Fusion needs 4 accounts, 1 for each user = $40k

Well Goose no not really, if the company set it up with their email and made a user name, each shift only needs to login with that user name and password, no different than MasterCAM on one PC. if you need more seats of Fusion you can have basic for jobs that don't need the machining extensions. plus if those companies have SW they get HSMWorks too, so there's another added seat of software to machine from (yes they could kill it off, but milk that shit till it is) and the post works for all three of the CAM's Fusion, HSMWorks and Inventor CAM.

so your numbers aren't that accurate either, sorry
 

goooose

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Location
canada
Well Goose no not really, if the company set it up with their email and made a user name, each shift only needs to login with that user name and password, no different than MasterCAM on one PC. if you need more seats of Fusion you can have basic for jobs that don't need the machining extensions. plus if those companies have SW they get HSMWorks too, so there's another added seat of software to machine from (yes they could kill it off, but milk that shit till it is) and the post works for all three of the CAM's Fusion, HSMWorks and Inventor CAM.

so your numbers aren't that accurate either, sorry
My understanding is that each person that uses the software needs their own account. You could try and have all use the same account, but I'd suggest reading through your terms of service before you even try, then decide if that's a gamble you want to take.
 

len_1962

Stainless
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
Tempe
My understanding is that each person that uses the software needs their own account. You could try and have all use the same account, but I'd suggest reading through your terms of service before you even try, then decide if that's a gamble you want to take.
too use it it on multiple PC's at the same time, you'll need multiple user accounts.

the plus side to one account is that all the work is not locked to each users account that way everything is in one place.
 

goooose

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Location
canada
too use it it on multiple PC's at the same time, you'll need multiple user accounts.

the plus side to one account is that all the work is not locked to each users account that way everything is in one place.
As mentioned above, read your terms of service. Everyone using Fusion needs their own account.

From an AD forum, quoting AD support 'Each person or "named user" should have their own Autodesk Account and only use their own account. It is not permissible for two people to share one account'

You'll also find in that terms of service the length which you agree to let AD go to make sure you are in compliance.
 

len_1962

Stainless
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
Tempe
As mentioned above, read your terms of service. Everyone using Fusion needs their own account.

From an AD forum, quoting AD support 'Each person or "named user" should have their own Autodesk Account and only use their own account. It is not permissible for two people to share one account'

You'll also find in that terms of service the length which you agree to let AD go to make sure you are in compliance.
if the boss leaves it open all day they'll never know if someone not the boss uses the computer, I've left mine open for a week with no one asking from AD why I haven't closed out, maybe they don't care as I get it for free because I'm EDU. ?????

PC has one IP Address, now if they were opening different pc's then yeah they would start to wonder.

just saying
 

goooose

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Location
canada
if the boss leaves it open all day they'll never know if someone not the boss uses the computer, I've left mine open for a week with no one asking from AD why I haven't closed out, maybe they don't care as I get it for free because I'm EDU. ?????

PC has one IP Address, now if they were opening different pc's then yeah they would start to wonder.

just saying
You can do whatever you'd like. Sure, maybe they don't care about EDU. But, just like shops that used to pirate Mastercam...you'll be fine until you're not. Just know what you've agreed to before going down that road. If you are doing this, again, read through the terms of service specifically the section on compliance.
 

len_1962

Stainless
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Location
Tempe
You can do whatever you'd like. Sure, maybe they don't care about EDU. But, just like shops that used to pirate Mastercam...you'll be fine until you're not. Just know what you've agreed to before going down that road. If you are doing this, again, read through the terms of service specifically the section on compliance.
who the hell would Pirate MASTERSCAM....................:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: :stirthepot::hitsthefan:
 

SeymourDumore

Diamond
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
CT
PC has one IP Address, now if they were opening different pc's then yeah they would start to wonder.

Nonetheless, named user as-per ADSK licensing agreement means: 1 license for each individual using the software, seat sharing or license sharing is not allowed.
Yes, for the time being at least - the account manager has the right to change the user name assigned to the license ( hence named user ) as many times as she/he needs to,
but that does not negate the fact that 1 license = 1 and only 1 user!

Sure, ADSK would need to come up with a method of reliably verifying that each license is always used by the appropriate user, but sharing a computer and using
the same license for Any and All Autodesk products is in fact a violation of the terms.
 








 
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