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Gallmeyer & Livingston # 10 grinder -- Seeking information

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
In doing some reading about grinding wheels softer wheels for hardened tool steel and harder wheels for softer steel. I can see where a harder wheels could chip an edge of a high carbon bit. I don't really see the advantage of a harder wheel for softer steel. Unless it would be less prone to metal clogging the wheel.

I will follow what Michiganbuck , eKretz and texasgunsmith said earlier in this thread about grinding wheels and ask when not sure of what to use.
The diamond wheels are expensive but may pay off in length of service.
There are some good buys on the auction site. I'll try to stay with name brand unless given dependable import brands.
I bought some import angle grinder wheels once that could kill someone.

It's worth spending more for a safe wheel. High RPM' throw pieces so A full-face shield wouldn't hurt.
I appreciate all the help so far. I got a lot more useful information in a week than weeks or months of searching and trial and error.
I'm also less intimidated by using the TCG. I'll still take small bites while getting set up. There was a lot of set up in my previous line of work. I miss work! It gives you have a sense of purpose in life.

Thanks Mike
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
softer wheels for hardened tool steel and harder wheels for softer steel is the common rule and often a good rule..but not always correct.

The wheel that works is the correct wheel. Some material is so hard that the softer wheel will not even penetrate the part. The harder wheel may cause a ton of heat, frequent dressing, a bigger Hp motor, or other problems but maybe the best wheel.

I bought a box of Carborundum L wheels at auction and even though the L wheel is often too hard they proved to be great wheels, even for grinding a magnet chuck.
Each wheel has its own way of stating hardness so going harder or softer with different wheel names can not be what you expect.
RE: L is about 4 places harder than an H wheel.

A vitrified wheel that rings, has a blotter and an RPM designation is most often good..

Not uncommon that a cup wheel does not ring, or not hardly at all, and is still good.
Good to never stand in the blow up dirction when starting any wheel. stand to the side.
 

eKretz

Diamond; Mod Squad
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Location
Northwest Indiana, USA
Adding to what Buck said, the softer wheel for hard steel and harder wheel for soft steel thing has to do with economy and also the wheel's ability to shed dull grit particles.

Using a harder wheel for soft steel makes good sense as the grit particles don't dull as fast on soft steel, so you want to keep them in the wheel a little longer. This is good for a couple reasons - one, your wheel keeps its size and shape longer. Two, you don't use up so much wheel when grinding. Replacing wheels for no reason other than using one that's too soft can get expensive.

The flip side of that coin, using the softer wheel for hard steel is common because the harder steel dulls the abrasive grit much faster. If the dull grit particles aren't released pretty quickly when they get dulled, there's a lot of heat produced and not much material being removed. So you get slowed production and very possibly scrapped or warped parts.

As Buck noted, there are times when you do things a little differently - for instance you might use a harder wheel on hard material if you need to hold a form shape or corner - and at that point instead of the dull grit being released by the bond letting it go, you need to be the arbiter of when it's time to release that grit - and you do that by more frequently dressing the wheel when it's glazed; but that's generally the reasoning behind that sort-of maxim.

Another tip - you can make a wheel "act" like it has a harder or softer bond by altering spindle RPM and traverse speed of the table. To make a wheel act softer, lower the spindle RPM or increase the table traverse speed. To make it act as though harder, do the opposite. You can also slightly affect this by the speed that the dressing diamond is traversed across the wheel when dressing. Faster for a "softer" wheel and vice versa.
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
In the last two posts I couldn't have asked for a better explanation. I have always looked at wheel dressing more about truing up the wheel than exposing new sharp grit. I'll be dressing the bench grinder more than just when it is just uneven.
I can see some of this comes with practice on the job and watching how its grinding. Maybe even noticing a change in the sparks.
Sparks are used to identify hard or soft steel so how well its grinding also?
Maybe running hotter as mentioned. Ill refer back to this thread and others as needed. It's a lot to retain at once. A lot of it will stick but on the job is when the experience of problem-solving stays with you. Speaking for myself here

You can't get this kind of information out of an owner's manual.
Thanks Mike
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Seeing that Eric got us into fine-tuning wheels I might as well add two more.
(likely the guys here could add a bunch more.)

To make a hard wheel seem softer one can by hand-holding cut lines across the surface grinder type one (common type) using a parting wheel to make cross-ways cuts on the OD, or plunge a diamond into the OD at about every 1/16 - 1/8 th to notch circle around. This so as the hardness tries to slow down the wheel by having less surface contact the wheel can hold it's RPM.
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
Eric posted a thread a while back. In it you can find a link for Norton's Wheel Dressing Manual on pdf. Its pretty handy as well.

The thread:
Norton's "For Grinder Hands Only" Wheel Dressing Manual

The drop box link for the pdf:
Dropbox - Norton Grinder Hand's Dressing Manual.pdf - Simplify your life

You know, I've had in my head that I need to make wall charts for each machine, plus some other handy info. Stuff I might not use everyday that slips from my head. Maybe other quick notes, etc.

If you guys take a break from writing books, bet you could pound out some handy dandy wall charts. I'd buy one. :D
 

eKretz

Diamond; Mod Squad
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Location
Northwest Indiana, USA
Eric posted a thread a while back. In it you can find a link for Norton's Wheel Dressing Manual on pdf. Its pretty handy as well.

The thread:
Norton's "For Grinder Hands Only" Wheel Dressing Manual

The drop box link for the pdf:
Dropbox - Norton Grinder Hand's Dressing Manual.pdf - Simplify your life

You know, I've had in my head that I need to make wall charts for each machine, plus some other handy info. Stuff I might not use everyday that slips from my head. Maybe other quick notes, etc.

If you guys take a break from writing books, bet you could pound out some handy dandy wall charts. I'd buy one. :D

What other machines have you got again? I might have something you'd like for the lathe, maybe the mill too.
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
What other machines have you got again? I might have something you'd like for the lathe, maybe the mill too.

Operational ? Or still in project mode ? :D

3 lathes. A South Bend 16" turret lathe. A Monarch Series 61 16x54, and a Monarch 10ee with a 32" bed.

2 mills. A Bridgeport J head, and an Oerlikon MN3H horizontal with vertical head, its about #3 size.

B & S No 5 surface grinder. Cincinnati 10x24 universal grinder. And the Hammond CB-77 tool grinder.

And about a 100 year old Smith and Mills shaper, lol.

I'm limited on floor space. I'm thinking I really shouldn't keep 3 lathes. The 61 series I'm keeping for sure. The South Bend I have a strong attachment to because I love the power fed tail stock for drilling, plus ease of use in general, But I also think the 10ee is a good off set match for the Series 61. . .

I'd like to add a round column drill like a Cleereman or Cincinnati Bickford, or maybe a rotating head type drill like the Oerlikon UB2, but that another topic :D.

And I know Mike the op of this thread has a Pacemaker and a 10ee at least too, plus a South Bend if he didn't sell that yet. :D
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
It's not my thread so I don't want to hijack with all my stuff. Mike and I are pretty friendly though, and he mentioned that with the talk of grinder wheels here, that I should maybe mention way grinding on a lathe. Its my intention on the 61, and am getting prepped for that now.

I'm not setting up grinder yet, but it will be soon I think. Minor details:

1.Monarch flame hardened ways

2. Current intention is 6" green silicon wheels, I have different grits, and room to experiment before hitting final depth.

3. My approach will be in the same kind of pattern/direction as a surface grinder using the OD of wheel. I will feed in about 30% of wheel surface on each pass(something I read from Eric somewhere I believe :D).

4. I'll have control of cross feed and down feed. Easily inside of .001", and I'm hoping to control by .00025" or finer, but that's a little trial and error till I get there.

There's a bunch more details, and like I said I didn't want to hijack this thread, other than what you might like on wheel types or dressing, or technique maybe.

I laid out the basic plan in the first post:
Monarch Series 61, Rebuilding for Improvement

The thread is 11 pages long now, a lot with other rebuild/repair details. But now on pages 10-11 I'm getting to the way surfaces of bed, carriage, TS, cross slide etc.
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
Operational ? Or still in project mode ? :D

3 lathes. A South Bend 16" turret lathe. A Monarch Series 61 16x54, and a Monarch 10ee with a 32" bed.

2 mills. A Bridgeport J head, and an Oerlikon MN3H horizontal with vertical head, its about #3 size.

B & S No 5 surface grinder. Cincinnati 10x24 universal grinder. And the Hammond CB-77 tool grinder.

And about a 100 year old Smith and Mills shaper, lol.

I'm limited on floor space. I'm thinking I really shouldn't keep 3 lathes. The 61 series I'm keeping for sure. The South Bend I have a strong attachment to because I love the power fed tail stock for drilling, plus ease of use in general, But I also think the 10ee is a good off set match for the Series 61. . .

I'd like to add a round column drill like a Cleereman or Cincinnati Bickford, or maybe a rotating head type drill like the Oerlikon UB2, but that another topic :D.

And I know Mike the op of this thread has a Pacemaker and a 10ee at least too, plus a South Bend if he didn't sell that yet. :D


Can't sell the S.B. its Keeping things turning until the 10EE And pacemaker are chipping chips.
You are more likely to put the tool Eric Tool has to good use than myself. Anyway, I already have three of those. :codger:I'm goofing off mostly. Your still young enough to have a mission in mind
Don't sell that 16" SB Turret lathe.:toetap: When space gets tight build it an 8x15 home of its own
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
Is there any reason why they didn't use a variac to control motor speed?
I did see a C.G. online that had one. You may have to have one for each motor or plug the one in for variable that's needed.
 

eKretz

Diamond; Mod Squad
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Location
Northwest Indiana, USA
A Variac (autotransformer) won't control AC motor speed by just plugging it in to the Variac. There are specialty setups with a Variac powering only a motor's windings to control magnetic field strength, or a DC motor powered by a Variac and a rectifier (not a great way for lower speeds) but those are something different than just plugging in.

I run a VFD on both my surface and tool/cutter grinders for spindle speed. I like having control of that as well as soft start. That's a different animal than a Variac though and you generally need 3 phase motors to use one.

As far as the lathe, I think my end goal would be keeping the Monarchs and moving the SB on. You can always get or make a turret tailstock for the 10EE if you want one.

I have a few charts and tables in my stash that I mentioned in the other thread that you guys might like for the lathe and mill, I'll see about getting them scanned. I've been meaning to do that but forgot about it. I have a LocTite booklet similar to that Norton wheel dressing booklet if you guys might want a copy of that too. Describes their product line and how/when to use, etc.
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
A Variac (autotransformer) won't control AC motor speed by just plugging it in to the Variac. There are specialty setups with a Variac powering only a motor's windings to control magnetic field strength, or a DC motor powered by a Variac and a rectifier (not a great way for lower speeds) but those are something different than just plugging in.

I run a VFD on both my surface and tool/cutter grinders for spindle speed. I like having control of that as well as soft start. That's a different animal than a Variac though and you generally need 3 phase motors to use one.

As far as the lathe, I think my end goal would be keeping the Monarchs and moving the SB on. You can always get or make a turret tailstock for the 10EE if you want one.

I have a few charts and tables in my stash that I mentioned in the other thread that you guys might like for the lathe and mill, I'll see about getting them scanned. I've been meaning to do that but forgot about it. I have a LocTite booklet similar to that Norton wheel dressing booklet if you guys might want a copy of that too. Describes their product line and how/when to use, etc.

A v.f.d sounds like a plan. I wasn't thinking about that option
The charts and the Loctite literature would be appreciated.

That we myself and Charlie won't be fighting over anything. :fight:

Thanks Mike
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
After doing some homework I think I'll keep the cutter grinder as it is and do pully changes as speed changes are needed.
Those motors run so smooth I couldn't or wouldn't change anything. It's a survivor from the past and is fine as it is.
Ill add a third powered workhead or powered spindle at some point when I know what I really need.

I have been cruising ebay. Tons of import stuff but I will buy old iron parts and acessories off of old iron only. That grinder may bite me if I stick a Import part on there. I have seen a couple powered workheads on there that are priced at the value of a whole grinder.
Ill find one priced right and jump on it. There's a lot of simple table accessories for sale.
Some that could be made from a photo to copy the part but for $35 ill buy it instead.

I just need grinding wheels. some new belts, cleaning and lubed and I'll be grinding
I'll get a few grinding wheels referring back to earlier posts in this thread to start with.
I have learned a lot in this thread. Thanks for the guidance.

You can teach an old dog new tricks if he's willing to listen. Ill for sure have more questions when I start grinding.
Thanks Mike
 

wood2steel

Aluminum
Joined
May 17, 2013
Location
georgia
Mike,
sorry I bailed on you a week or so. Work keeps getting in the way; dang it .
I've got a huge stash of grinder wheels (diamond cone and abrasive). Should be able to get you covered for at least the short term. PM when u get a chance. May talk about a workhead as well.
Johnny
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Some older Cincinnati TC grinders have a long travel table pulling pulley at one end. One can put a weigh after the table end hanging down to provide a constant pull/long travel, so the machine becomes a walk-away cut off machine... an off switch to bump makes the shut-off after the part is cut.
Yes one can fudge this up on any/many ball way grinders.

One could easily add a threaded rod to long travel for a feed, and make a decent cold saw out of suck a machine... but we the table would move, not the saw so it likely would be for small parts only.
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
Some older Cincinnati TC grinders have a long travel table pulling pulley at one end. One can put a weigh after the table end hanging down to provide a constant pull/long travel, so the machine becomes a walk-away cut off machine... an off switch to bump makes the shut-off after the part is cut.
Yes one can fudge this up on any/many ball way grinders.

One could easily add a threaded rod to long travel for a feed, and make a decent cold saw out of suck a machine... but we the table would move, not the saw so it likely would be for small parts only.

Buck
I often have the need to but off small rod and cut bolts, threaded rods and screws to length. Adding a microswitch stop isn't hard to do either
Small hardware I double nut to give something to hold and always put a nut on before cutting any threaded hardware to clean up the threads after the cut.
Thanks for the mental diagram of the cutoff idea. Your explanations are easy to follow.
All the tips and tricks are helpful.

Wood2steel
I'll send you a P.M.

Thanks Mike
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
A short v block with a clamp.. and a fast down feed with a 1/16 parting abrasive wheel cut off wheel isso fast that there is no reason to walk away.

The auto stop is for the likes of cutting stones and rocks, even cutting off diamond wheel cutting carbide is very fast.

Much care to tighten a 1/16 cut off wheel.. you dint hand hold the wheel
 








 
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