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Getting an ST30 ATC/MC

noname777

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Location
NSW , Australia
that machine is monster. Looks like old T3 was retrofitted to be able to run MDS servo units.

Parameters are gone, FX board memory must be erased, made ZERO, with Laptop, like typical T2 re-initialization, before you can start typing original params.

T2 control issue is ....when memory is contaminated, you cant run the machine at all. Even if you manually type all params, machine get hold to invisible rubbish inside memory board, and will think god knows what of itself.

-C axis mode is only available once you homed C axis, engaged. So machine starts using servo control to operate C axis, and Spindle control to run your milling tool

-Tail stock can be interlocked with other axises or some other inputs, only way to troubleshoot it is , to walk through ladder diagram
 

xa-mont

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
Victoria, Australia
i tried re-initialising the parameters with no change.

i did however discover that i can enable the C axis by just mdi-ing a c number (angle) so i'm guessing the buttons just dont work when you dont have full C. I have noticed an issue with this though, that may require a parameter change for an encoder offset or something? The tooth is landing on the top of a tooth... if that makes sense, if not heres a video.

Shared album - Travis Hammond - Google Photos

still have the lube alarm, but i'll try leaving it running for a while, as it is definitely cycling just fine, so might just need time to get rid of all the air and build up some pressure.

no joy moving the tailstock body yet either.
 

noname777

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Location
NSW , Australia
that C axis is monster, never seen it like this.

for lubrication alarm, machine has ( well new ones) 3 timers. Lub timer, pump running time and pump retry. That is the way it is on new mazaks. So, when lub timer is made, machine quickly look at grease pressure sensor and then, if it is made, machine thinks that grease channels are blocked and alarms.

If the sensor isnt made, machine pumps grease and watching pressure sensor, if it was made during the pumping, then all is ok and happy end.

if pressure sensor wasnt made, machine will retry to pump more grease and have a look at sensor again. Sensor is made? very good... Sensor isnt made? Alarm.

there must be a parameter, kind of timer for lubrication. If you make it small, you can monitor grease pump and pressure sensor feedback with multi-miter, see if there is any asynchronous signals.


p.s tails stock is only electrical drawing and ladder diagram. You push buttons, you see if they (signals coming into machine) are changing itself on diagnostic screen. If they are , then step by step , checking all PLC relays until you see what holds it. What if tail stock is parameter disable?? What if machine doesnt know that it has tail stock???

p.s.s there must be somewhere an encoder for C axis. it gives machine A, B phases to control motor and then Z phase. Sort of reference, single pulse per revolution. If Z phase isnt recognizable , never in your life you would be able to engage C axis, as machine doesnt understand what to do. It needs Z phase signal to be ON, and then starts counting pulses , sort of offset , in MDS unit. Once number of pulses ( A and B ) phase is made, C axis is stopped and oriented. Very easy. Then you can use manual generator to rotate C clockwise or anti. Very easy philosophy, one thousand things can be wrong in real life.
 

xa-mont

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
Victoria, Australia
that C axis is monster, never seen it like this.

for lubrication alarm, machine has ( well new ones) 3 timers. Lub timer, pump running time and pump retry. That is the way it is on new mazaks. So, when lub timer is made, machine quickly look at grease pressure sensor and then, if it is made, machine thinks that grease channels are blocked and alarms.

If the sensor isnt made, machine pumps grease and watching pressure sensor, if it was made during the pumping, then all is ok and happy end.

if pressure sensor wasnt made, machine will retry to pump more grease and have a look at sensor again. Sensor is made? very good... Sensor isnt made? Alarm.

there must be a parameter, kind of timer for lubrication. If you make it small, you can monitor grease pump and pressure sensor feedback with multi-miter, see if there is any asynchronous signals.
The system isn't so sophisticated on these old girls. Just a simple lube brand pump that pumps X amount of oil every X minutes, and there's a pressure sensor just after it to make sure there's pressure in the lines.

I left it running for a while to no avail. Then I removed the oil filter (basically the first thing after the pump) and nothing is coming out of there when it hits it's interval (3 minutes in this case) so it would appear the pump isn't working properly, so that's something else to play with.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 

noname777

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Location
NSW , Australia
lemme check. I have this electrical drawing that someone uploaded for you. Slideway lub alarm. Go to the page 232 ... it is 104 in PLC ladder part, starts from 3 until 5. Here you have X33 and X5B, both will start timers T24 and T25. NO contacts both of them will trigger alarm, unless machine is setup as simulation stand. So here you are. Have a look at diagnostic screen at H006.3 and H00B.3 .Dont event have to be bothered with multimeter.


same rules apply if you want to see why this dummy tails isnt moving. In case this el drawing is similar to your machine.
 

benganboll

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Location
Sweden Östersund
Where the C axis will stop for clamp is set by two potentiometers on the spindlecontroller. (not parameters)
But I think somthing is wrong here, My ST30 will spin spindle for 1-2 turns and then break it to a stop to clamp it.
I miss the break in the video.
Is the belts slipping?

(You are right about that you cant engage C axis by pressing the C axis button since you have the C index option like mine)
 

noname777

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Location
NSW , Australia
Where the C axis will stop for clamp is set by two potentiometers on the spindlecontroller. (not parameters)
But I think somthing is wrong here, My ST30 will spin spindle for 1-2 turns and then break it to a stop to clamp it.
I miss the break in the video.
Is the belts slipping?

(You are right about that you cant engage C axis by pressing the C axis button since you have the C index option like mine)

on attached drawing, page 25, you can see separate C axis motor and T.G (tachogenerator) and all this stuff connected to C acis servo. page 83 is where C axis servo, servo motor + its encoder and one more separate tachogenerator.

I dont really understand mechanics from electrical drawing, but you have Spindle FR-SE controller and spindle motor with PLG and another encoder and C axis servo motor with encoder and separate tachogenerator.

I would assume, FR-SE must rotate Spindle motor, looking on spindle encoder and stop it where C axis can be engaged by shifter ( some sort of) then C axis servo is taking care of rotation of Spindle and NC control is looking for C axis tachogenerator signal.

All in All. you have FR-SE amp with spindle motor and 2 encoders, and C axis servo-amp with 2 encoders, for C axis control.

again, just and thought... I would assume FR-SE is somehow must rotate spindle twice, detect zero, then rotate and slow down and use creeping speed to approach C axis engage position where C axis will engage itself.

Is this how this machine normally would work???
 

xa-mont

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
Victoria, Australia
PROGRESS!!

I've moved my tail stock! Turns out it isn't the type that has it's own motor or whatever - it's the type that you need to latch onto the turret and move with that, so that's all good now.

I also fixed the lube pump - a part out of the bottom of the plunger (i guess it's kind of a check valve) had come out - i reinstalled that bad boy and now it's pumping lube! (still have an alarm but once the system builds up some pressure i'm sure it'll be fine.)

so next step is to work out the c axis situation (and remember this isn't a full C axis machine noname777, it only indexes in 1* increments.) and learn the nuances of this bad boy over the T2 machine i have!

good times!

Cheers for everyones help so far.
 

noname777

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Location
NSW , Australia
have you got a maintenance manual for this machine?

there is no such a thing like full C axis. It is degree of freedom, your machine has 1 degree, means , C axis will be locked in every 1 degree. like Mazak Integrex I series, B axis so powerful it can be indexed with any degree, cause turret gearbox can withhold any load, and you cam mill any shape.


We have to separate steps so you can tell what is wrong. I had a quick look at maintenance book, someone shot me few pages dedicated to C axis.

1. Spindle FR-SE rotates and pulses one revolution signal to NC. NC stops spindle where C axis aux shaft can be moved in.
2. C axis shifter moves in and engages C axis motor, that is connected through Harmonic gear box. NC gets a signal that C axis engaged and disengage main spindle motor.
3. You trying to index it, C axis rotates spindle ( then I am not sure but C axis servo must break or sindle clamp must stop spindle from rotating)
4. Then, Index pins will move in, there are 3 of them, on first video you posted, they are offseted to be able to stop and lock spindle with 1 degree resolution
5. Once C axis positioned and locked, turret can start milling


From whatever you posted, looks like after engaging C axis, it rotates and doesnt stop in proper place. I can see clearly almost full revolution. IS it happening after C axis engaged or just before? When FR-SE main spindle is trying to synchronize C axis auxiliary shaft
 

xa-mont

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
Victoria, Australia
just tried using the C index with the main spindle in 3rd gear and it worked fine and landed IN a tooth, not on the top of one. so maybe the key is just to use 3rd gear, which i guess i will be most of the time anyway.
 

benganboll

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Location
Sweden Östersund
just tried using the C index with the main spindle in 3rd gear and it worked fine and landed IN a tooth, not on the top of one. so maybe the key is just to use 3rd gear, which i guess i will be most of the time anyway.

There is a M code for selecting gear so you could always use that in a M code process before you use a C axis process.
Have you marked the cogwheel where it clamps and checked so it clamps at the same position every time?

FYI, there is no way to select gear to use at a fine cut.
Not even with the M code you can put in the process to activate between rough and fine cut, it will then select the gear you entered by M code and then select the "auto gear".
 








 
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