Haas helping the Russians?

[Milling man]

Posting some facts about what what sanctions would have been broken will go a long way.

Beautiful words.
I have always been stumped by the requirement for businesses to comply with some requirements other than laws. The machine tool factory must make the machines most efficiently and sell them for the highest profit - without breaking the law.
All my life I see a bunch of this crap in Russia - a machine tool factory should make machine tools, and also maintain a kindergarten for the children of employees, a summer holiday camp for the children of employees, a hospital, a clinic, a sports team, pay a salary to a bunch of invalids doing nothing (who cannot be fired , even if they sniff coke right at their desk), etc.
Hell, the state should be in charge of shaping the sled. If someone has violated some law - it is bad, you need to conduct a trial in accordance with the law.
A couple of months after the start of the war (my God, this is the second year of this horror .....) it turned out that French enterprises supplied kits for assembling sighting systems that were installed on Russian armored vehicles, and the deliveries were made after 2014 of the year (after the annexation of Crimea ). Naturally, such things require an export license. I have no questions for these enterprises - their first goal is to earn. But what the hell was the idiot at customs who issued the export permit for this?????

 

[standardparts]

Let's change the scenario a little : local newspaper prints a story that your high school daughter is banging the entire football team in exchange for coke. No proof at all, just conjecture because they saw her riding the bus the team was on and it looked like she was sniffling.

I don't have a Haas but I do have a lifetime in manufacturing and American machine tools and watching the whole productive sector of the middle class get crushed like a bug. I'll admit it - seeing some ignorant twats who can't even speak english smear a US machine tool company pisses me off ("Haas is guilty of shipping to Russian-sanctioned enterprises" .. well I got a bit of a clue for our Denis boy, there are no "Russian-sanctioned enterprises." They are sanctioned by the US, imbecile.) It's frustrating as much as reading in the paper that your daughter is screwing the football team for lines would probably get you upset.

HUGH business opportunity for any country, with an active machine tool industry ( wink) seeking to fill demand to a country in need, or which identifies as a trading partner and seeks to gain market share, employ thier citizens, and weaken the competition. Machine tools no doubt play into GDP while at the same time represent great source of funds to purchase needed resources.

When you think about it, you might even want to place those activists and PBS on retainer. All is fair and love and war.....and business.

 

[standardparts]

So under "Haas helping the Russians?" I guess the best answer is 'not anymore'.
which leaves us with, who will fill the need for CNC?
There is this...and numbers may vary based in if you break stats down into specific categories...
"What country produces the most machine tools?

That year (2021), China accounted for 31 percent of the world's machine tool production, while Germany and Japan each accounted for 13 percent...The United States 9%....And others 27%."

Market share of leading countries in machine tool production | Statista

In 2021, China, Germany, and Japan were the powerhouses of machine tool industry worldwide.

www.statista.com

Looking at the chart it's pretty obvious sanctions will eliminate any EU producers. So other than China one must sort through the "any others" to find those who don't honor the Administration/EU sanctions AND...seek to expand their machine tool industry. The list will be a short one I imagine.

So, maybe there should be a thread titled "Manufacturing in the Indo-Pacific"
"the Indo-Pacific makes up more than one-third of all global economic activity. Three of the world's largest economies—the People's Republic of China (China), India and Japan—"

Anyway...sorry to post what seems to be straying from the topic of Haas helping the Russians but obviously there are likely a whole lot of moving parts that are part of the story, and just about guaranteed collateral damage to some machine tool manufacturers......

 

[ghost of christmas past]

Looking at the chart it's pretty obvious sanctions will eliminate any EU producers.

Not really. Just sell to an intermediate buyer in a third country, like everyone already does with Iran. Raises the price some but other than that it's not too difficult. Or uncommon .... the hard part would be transferring the money but Germany, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and China all use oil and natural gas, so ...

 

[William Payne]

Let's change the scenario a little : local newspaper prints a story that your high school daughter is banging the entire football team in exchange for coke. No proof at all, just conjecture because they saw her riding the bus the team was on and it looked like she was sniffling.

I don't have a Haas but I do have a lifetime in manufacturing and American machine tools and watching the whole productive sector of the middle class get crushed like a bug. I'll admit it - seeing some ignorant twats who can't even speak english smear a US machine tool company pisses me off ("Haas is guilty of shipping to Russian-sanctioned enterprises" .. well I got a bit of a clue for our Denis boy, there are no "Russian-sanctioned enterprises." They are sanctioned by the US, imbecile.) It's frustrating as much as reading in the paper that your daughter is screwing the football team for lines would probably get you upset.

My reaction to that scenario would be based on whether it’s true or not. Which is the real problem. But with any accusation the truth needs to be determined first. I’m not going to defend or attack something only to find out it was based on false information.

Some people want things to be a certain way and that’s how they base their views.

I’m more of a what does the evidence say kind of guy.

 

[gustafson]

So under "Haas helping the Russians?" I guess the best answer is 'not anymore'.
which leaves us with, who will fill the need for CNC?
There is this...and numbers may vary based in if you break stats down into specific categories...
"What country produces the most machine tools?

That year (2021), China accounted for 31 percent of the world's machine tool production, while Germany and Japan each accounted for 13 percent...The United States 9%....And others 27%."

Market share of leading countries in machine tool production | Statista

In 2021, China, Germany, and Japan were the powerhouses of machine tool industry worldwide.

www.statista.com

Looking at the chart it's pretty obvious sanctions will eliminate any EU producers. So other than China one must sort through the "any others" to find those who don't honor the Administration/EU sanctions AND...seek to expand their machine tool industry. The list will be a short one I imagine.

So, maybe there should be a thread titled "Manufacturing in the Indo-Pacific"
"the Indo-Pacific makes up more than one-third of all global economic activity. Three of the world's largest economies—the People's Republic of China (China), India and Japan—"

Anyway...sorry to post what seems to be straying from the topic of Haas helping the Russians but obviously there are likely a whole lot of moving parts that are part of the story, and just about guaranteed collateral damage to some machine tool manufacturers......

Good point, however:

So you don't get to sell machines to Spain

Is that going to make or kill your business?

 

[gustafson]

Not really. Just sell to an intermediate buyer in a third country, like everyone already does with Iran. Raises the price some but other than that it's not too difficult. Or uncommon .... the hard part would be transferring the money but Germany, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and China all use oil and natural gas, so ...

Yes and no.
Business are responsible for where their things end up
It is really a 'can you defend it with a straight face' type scenario

 

[Thunderjet]

Business are responsible for where their things end up.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this ridiculous statement.

What if the Russians sell that crap to the Iranians?

Is Hass on the hook for TWO shitpot dictators.

You can't expect the manufacturer to police the second hand machinery market.

 

[CarbideBob]

We should not sell these types of things to Russia.
We should it leave for China to do and try. Before long will be India.
Of course a Hass is a super top end machine that can be built nowhere else as only the USA has this knowledge or workforce capability.
Are you against selling stale bread to the Russian people?
Bob

 

[gustafson]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this ridiculous statement.

What if the Russians sell that crap to the Iranians?

Is Hass on the hook for TWO shitpot dictators.

You can't expect the manufacturer to police the second hand machinery market.

It is not a ridiculous statement

If you are selling enough machines to say, Tuvalu, to put one in every living room, it is expected you will ask questions in a world with sanctions regimes.
This is the 'with a straight face' concept

 

[gustafson]

We should not sell these types of things to Russia.
We should it leave for China to do and try. Before long will be India.
Of course a Hass is a super top end machine that can be built nowhere else as only the USA has this knowledge or workforce capability.
Are you against selling stale bread to the Russian people?
Bob

Yeah, that is a good idea, lets just sell everything to everyone, cause someone else is bound to do it anyway
Point taken on the 'high end machine'

 

[standardparts]

We should not sell these types of things to Russia.
We should it leave for China to do and try. Before long will be India.
Of course a Hass is a super top end machine that can be built nowhere else as only the USA has this knowledge or workforce capability.
Are you against selling stale bread to the Russian people?
Bob

"We should it leave for China to do and try. Before long will be India."
Moving away from the product being "CNC" (broad term) machines our past history is of sending specific work to China, and India, that was too dirty, or labor intensive (costly) to accomplish in the United States.
Might want to add Mexico to the list. Best I can tell, as of 2022 they did not seem to care greatly regarding Russian sanctions. Others may be able to find some updated info.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

Moving away from the product being "CNC" (broad term) machines our past history is of sending specific work to China, and India, and Mexico, that was too dirty, or labor intensive (costly) to accomplish in the United States.

You forgot the part about everyone snivelling over it a few years later ...

 

[standardparts]

You forgot the part about everyone snivelling over it a few years later ...

I guess it all works out.....we can still assemble machinery in the U.S.

 

[mrSanders62]

Красивые слова.
Меня всегда ставило в тупик требование к предприятиям соблюдать какие-то требования, кроме законов. Станкостроительный завод должен производить станки максимально эффективно и продавать их с наибольшей прибылью, не нарушая закон.
Всю жизнь вижу кучу этой хрени в России - станкостроительный завод должен делать станки, а еще содержать детский сад для детей служащих, летний лагерь для детей служащих, больницу, поликлинику, спортивная команда, платить зарплату кучке бездельников-инвалидов (которых нельзя уволить, даже если они нюхают кокаин прямо за своим столом) и т.д.
Черт, государство должно отвечать за формирование саней. Если кто-то нарушил какой-то закон — это плохо, нужно проводить суд в соответствии с законом.
Через пару месяцев после начала войны (боже мой, уже второй год этот ужас.....) выяснилось, что французские предприятия поставляли комплекты для сборки прицельных комплексов, которые устанавливались на российскую бронетехнику, и поставки производились после 2014 года (после присоединения Крыма). Естественно, такие вещи требуют экспортной лицензии. У меня нет вопросов к этим предприятиям - их первая цель - заработать. Но что за идиот на таможне выдал разрешение на вывоз?????

про социалку ты не прав. все те владельцы заводов про которые ты говоришь не строили их. они украли их у государства. то про что говоришь ты это социал дарвинизм. ты или заблуждаешься или просто глуп.

 

[Rob F.]

про социалку ты не прав. все те владельцы заводов про которые ты говоришь не строили их. они украли их у государства. то про что говоришь ты это социал дарвинизм. ты или заблуждаешься или просто глуп.

Here is a translation, he was quoting post #181:

you're wrong about social work. all those factory owners you're talking about didn't build them. they stole them from the state. what you're talking about is social Darwinism. you're either mistaken or just stupid.

 

[Rob F.]

Beautiful words.
I have always been stumped by the requirement for businesses to comply with some requirements other than laws. The machine tool factory must make the machines most efficiently and sell them for the highest profit - without breaking the law.
All my life I see a bunch of this crap in Russia - a machine tool factory should make machine tools, and also maintain a kindergarten for the children of employees, a summer holiday camp for the children of employees, a hospital, a clinic, a sports team, pay a salary to a bunch of invalids doing nothing (who cannot be fired , even if they sniff coke right at their desk), etc.
Hell, the state should be in charge of shaping the sled. If someone has violated some law - it is bad, you need to conduct a trial in accordance with the law.
A couple of months after the start of the war (my God, this is the second year of this horror .....) it turned out that French enterprises supplied kits for assembling sighting systems that were installed on Russian armored vehicles, and the deliveries were made after 2014 of the year (after the annexation of Crimea ). Naturally, such things require an export license. I have no questions for these enterprises - their first goal is to earn. But what the hell was the idiot at customs who issued the export permit for this?????

Just for fun I also put post 195 into the yandex translate program to see how it would compare to what was written in english in post 181, so here are both 181 original and the same thing after going from english to russian and back to english...

Beautiful words.
I have always been baffled by the requirement for enterprises to comply with any requirements other than laws. A machine tool factory should produce machines as efficiently as possible and sell them with the greatest profit, without violating the law.
All my life I've seen a bunch of this crap in Russia - a machine-tool factory should make machine tools, and also maintain a kindergarten for employees' children, a summer camp for employees' children, a hospital, a polyclinic, a sports team, pay salaries to a bunch of disabled idlers (who can't be fired, even if they snort cocaine right at their desk), etc.
Damn, the state should be responsible for the formation of the sleigh. If someone has violated some law, it is bad, it is necessary to conduct a trial in accordance with the law.
A couple of months after the start of the war (my God, this is the second year of this horror .....) it turned out that French companies supplied kits for the assembly of sighting systems that were installed on Russian armored vehicles, and deliveries were made after 2014 (after the annexation of Crimea). Naturally, such things require an export license. I have no questions for these companies - their first goal is to make money. But what kind of idiot at customs issued an export permit?????


you're wrong about social work. all those factory owners you're talking about didn't build them. they stole them from the state. what you're talking about is social Darwinism. you're either mistaken or just stupid.

 

[mrSanders62]

Here is a translation, he was quoting post #181:

you're wrong about social work. all those factory owners you're talking about didn't build them. they stole them from the state. what you're talking about is social Darwinism. you're either mistaken or just stupid.

he is Russian like me. hardly anyone is interested in our chatter. but thanks for the translation

 

[kpotter]

It was 2 million dollars worth of machines. That's almost nothing. The amount of time between the ban on Russia and the time the order happened is a couple months. When you are shipping stuff globally it can sit 2 months on the dock. I don't think there is any story here. 2 million dollars is like less than a days sales for haas

 

[Milling man]

@mrSanders62
It seemed to me that this is an English-language forum Let's keep up appearances and communicate in the same language.