Haas Super Mini Mill VS DEM 4000

[Miller846]

Good Evening, I am very curious what your opinions are on the question of Haas Super Mini Mill Vs a Doosan DEM 4000. I think this is a common decision for guys starting up or looking to place a machine in the garage and there really isn’t much info out there on the DEM. I have a Super Mini Mill currently and will be receiving a DEM next week to go along side the mini. I battled for a while between the two and finally settled on the DEM but there’s not a lot of videos or info on them so I’m hoping to get some perspectives in this thread for the best startup/garage machine, thanks!

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

The DEM is the educational version of the DNM. It's slightly "dressed down" but still a decent machine.

 

[rklopp]

The DEM 4000 is closer to the Haas VF-1 than the Super-Mini in terms of travels, spindle, and overall weight.

For the lone ranger garage person with no CNC experience, zero to Haas would be easier than zero to Fanuc 0i-MF Plus (DEM). There are vastly more freebie Haas than Fanuc training materials on the web.

 

[alliancefab]

the DEM is much more machine than a mini mill. I talked with the local DN rep about the DEM when I ordered my SVM4100 last week.

 

[wmpy]

Good Evening, I am very curious what your opinions are on the question of Haas Super Mini Mill Vs a Doosan DEM 4000. I think this is a common decision for guys starting up or looking to place a machine in the garage and there really isn’t much info out there on the DEM. I have a Super Mini Mill currently and will be receiving a DEM next week to go along side the mini. I battled for a while between the two and finally settled on the DEM but there’s not a lot of videos or info on them so I’m hoping to get some perspectives in this thread for the best startup/garage machine, thanks!

It sounds like you're in a great position to be making a comparison. Maybe you need to put some videos up on Youtube.

 

[Garwood]

The DEM 4000 is closer to the Haas VF-1 than the Super-Mini in terms of travels, spindle, and overall weight.

For the lone ranger garage person with no CNC experience, zero to Haas would be easier than zero to Fanuc 0i-MF Plus (DEM). There are vastly more freebie Haas than Fanuc training materials on the web.

How so? How do people struggle so much going from one control to another? They're all pretty much the same thing.

Fanuc may have an extra menu or two to do something, but they make up for it by not having 400 buttons on the control console.

Then you have MTB's like Makino that built thier own Fanuc ui that kicks ass.

 

[Miller846]

It sounds like you're in a great position to be making a comparison. Maybe you need to put some videos up on Youtube.

That would be pretty cool. I am definitely excited to run them head to head when I receive the DEM. My main reasons for going with the DEM over another super mini was travel, side mount tool changer, rigid casting, and service lead times (if needed). Everybody I’ve talked to, both on here and in person with doosan experience have all said they are much better built than haas. The price was actually the same for the DEM and a super mini 2 so that aspect wasn’t really a thought. I think it would be very helpful for a lot of guys starting up if there were some videos of the DEM going head to head with a super mini!

 

[plastikdreams]

Nice to be able to have a real-time comparison.

 

[prime_mover]

I don't have a super mini, just a regular mini from 2013, but I've ran many Haas VF mills over the years including a recent brand new VF4. A problem with Haas mills in general, regarding part quality, is that they leave small witness marks on parts whenever the axes change directions, so at the quadrants of circles, corner radii, etc. It's not ideal for cosmetic parts or when you are making a "lathe part" on your mill. Also the Z height tends to move a bit, not a lot but at least .001" over the course of a day in a temperature controlled environment, and also as tools heat up from use, making fine blends more difficult. The non dual contact spindle (non Big Plus) does not help the Z repeatability situation (or rigidity) and tools can get stuck in the spindle from heating up. The best Haas VMC, which I have never seen or used, would presumably be a VM series mill with HSK63A spindle, but a VM3 with that spindle option + any other options exceeds the base price of an Okuma GENOS M560-V for example. You'd have to be insane to go that Haas route, especially considering that they really don't age too well even if you take care of them, my impression is that they are pretty much toast after 10 years. And the recent change to corroding galvanized way covers does not exactly help with the value proposition of Haas machines.

A higher quality machine in roughly the same price class will perform better from day 1 and stay that way for much longer. Any machine with a dual contact spindle that doesn't leave marks at the quadrants is a big step up, and if it's also got better HSM motion, more spindle torque, and more rigidity, it's in a totally different class. I'd wager that the DN-S machines are better in all of those ways, but regarding the marks at the quadrants, I'd be interested in seeing a ball bar test. I presently have no experience with DN-S machines but they are on my short list for my next machine purchase. It's about time to upgrade the Mini and it ain't going to be another Haas.

 

[mhajicek]

A problem with Haas mills in general, regarding part quality, is that they leave small witness marks on parts whenever the axes change directions, so at the quadrants of circles, corner radii, etc. It's not ideal for cosmetic parts or when you are making a "lathe part" on your mill.

Have any of those machines been calibrated? I haven't seen axis reversal marks on the Haas machines I've used, which were laser and ballbar calibrated regularly.

 

[Miller846]

Ran the first batch of parts on the DEM today and they came out beautiful! I am very curious to try surfacing with it and see what kind of finish is achievable. So far from what I can see as key benefits over the haas super mini is rigidity (shows in surface finish), side mount tool changer (no more clunking and popping), chip evacuation (auger works 100 times better than the haas augers), as well as, oddly enough, the control. I am really liking the new fanuc control. My haas (pre-ngc) has had a handful of connectivity and buggy issues with it. The fanuc so far seems rock solid, loads programs quickly, and does what you tell it to. It does have a few more button presses to do the same thing that would take one button press on the haas, but it really doesn’t add much time at all and isn’t a big deal. I was a little worried about switching from a haas background to learning the fanuc control but so far it’s taken me a couple hours of just messing with it to see what does what and I’m off to the races. So far, very happy with the machine and the decision to switch from haas. Service has been great from Ellison as well, I needed a tech here quickly to get me running for this weekend and they had a tech out the day after I had power and air connected. Hopefully this helps anyone looking for input on this machine!

 

[prime_mover]

That's great to hear Miller846.

Have any of those machines been calibrated? I haven't seen axis reversal marks on the Haas machines I've used, which were laser and ballbar calibrated regularly.

You buy a Haas, it gets put on your floor, Haas comes in and sets it up, and you run it:

But over the years I have come up with several toolpath strategies to eliminate these marks:

I can even do edge breaks of .001" without any discernible difference in the appearance of the scallops as they approach the edge, and there is indeed a .001" edge break on the corner. This cut was made at 50 IPM I think, .0025" or .003" chip load per tooth.

I actually wrote up a comprehensive article detailing these strategies a few years ago but have not posted it.

 

[LockNut]

Surfacing may be problematic since that control only has 20 block look ahead. If you tryit, don't go crazy with the feed rate until you can judge the performance.

 

[prime_mover]

Therein lies the rub, maybe.

 

[mhajicek]

That's great to hear Miller846.


You buy a Haas, it gets put on your floor, Haas comes in and sets it up, and you run it:

"Well thars yer problem!"

After the machine has been in the shop for a couple weeks to settle, I have Productivity Quality come in and calibrate the machine. At Conventus Orthopaedics we had them come back once a year for a fine tuning; I'm thinking I'll do every other year for my own shop. The first time makes by far the most difference; after that it's just maintenance. Results were excellent.

 

[prime_mover]

That's great you've got gurus to calibrate your machines, but for everyone else, they're going to get witness marks on their parts. I'd wager that you do as well, you just don't notice them. Look at the corners or quadrants under magnification. See if the scallops are perfectly consistent like in my "12" photo above.

My local tech referred to the problem as "servo spikes," meaning it might be an electrical thing rather than mechanical. Beats me, I'll just say that I've got a lot of experience with Haas VMCs, including three or four that were brand spanking new, and there are always marks at the quadrants. It takes the form of a larger scallop, and the light reflects off of it differently, making it noticeable. My photo above with the red circle shows the light reflecting off of the particular errant scallop near the corner fillet. That's why it looks so pronounced. The larger scallop is probably caused either by a dwell in the feed as the machine changes from linear feed to circular, or there is a small jump in movement as the Y axis servo joins in. On a round part, one axis changes direction at the quadrant, which is a little different from what happens with a corner fillet. In either case there will be a witness mark.