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Haas Tool Room Alternatives

Joz234

Plastic
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
I need some advice on buying a new, or new to me, machine. I'm limited by my shop that doesn't have much available power (about 60 amps @ 220 MAX) without spending quite a bit, and I have 4" 4000PSI concrete, so while most machines are fine, some of the used machines I've found that way 10,000LBS+ worry me a bit. My shop is moving in about 4 1/2 months, so I don't really want to spend thousands overhauling my power panel, etc.

I currently need a machine that's either 5-axis (not holding my breath at my price point) or more likely is 3-axis that I can put a rotary and martin trunnion table in. I have a part that's in 6061 that I need to make a lot of and none of my current machines are capable (small shop...). Whatever I end up getting I'd really like it to have tool center point control. I've found I hate doing setups for 4th axis work without it.


So, I need a machine that has 25+" of X travel, 16+" of Y travel, tool center point control (or the option to add it), and that won't break my power panel (I know I could disconnect other machines but I can't really afford the down time). I was thinking a TM-1P or TM-2P would be a good machine for this, but the lead time from Haas is 30 weeks, and I can't seem to find one used! So, suggestions on other machines, around the $50K price point would be much appreciated. I'm expecting to have to buy a trunnion and rotary on top of that. I've found a 2012 DMG Dura Vertical 1035 Eco that's in decent condition near me with 11K spindle hours for $50K, but I'm waiting on a manual from Mori to see if it has TCPC. Also, it weighs 5 tons and that sounds like a lot for my concrete... All and any help is appreciated!
 
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MaxPrairie

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Have you talked to your haas salesman yet? I would strongly consider a vf2 over a toolroom machine. It has a much longer lifespan than tool room mills and seems to fit your size. We are looking a getting a new machine and our haas salesman emailed yesterday saying a customer backed out on one so no 4 month wait it’s all ready to ship. Wouldn’t hurt to let him know you are looking in case someone were to back out on a machine your size.
 

wheelieking71

Diamond
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I've had really bad luck trying to make parts with a martin trunnion table in the past with a machine that didn't have it.

WHY? Why did you have trouble without TCPC?
I understand it is cool. And can greatly simplify code. Really that is the only benefit.
The set-up still needs to be dead-bang-on-nuts. Maybe even more so. Especially for simultaneous work.
Why do you think TCPC is going to help you for 4th work? This is not knowing anything about your set-up, but :skep:
 

Joz234

Plastic
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
Have you talked to your haas salesman yet? I would strongly consider a vf2 over a toolroom machine. It has a much longer lifespan than tool room mills and seems to fit your size. We are looking a getting a new machine and our haas salesman emailed yesterday saying a customer backed out on one so no 4 month wait it’s all ready to ship. Wouldn’t hurt to let him know you are looking in case someone were to back out on a machine your size.

I've spoken to my HFO a couple of times, and the 30-week lead time is definitely firm, though I'll definitely ask them to keep me in mind if someone backs out on an order. A VF-2 would be nice but they need 70 amps unless you get a gearbox, but at that point, a new one would really be more than I'm trying to spend. And finding a used one in decent shape with a gearbox and next-gen controls sounds like a nightmare! Though I'm definitely looking...
 

Joz234

Plastic
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
WHY? Why did you have trouble without TCPC?
I understand it is cool. And can greatly simplify code. Really that is the only benefit.
The set-up still needs to be dead-bang-on-nuts. Maybe even more so. Especially for simultaneous work.
Why do you think TCPC is going to help you for 4th work? This is not knowing anything about your set-up, but :skep:

I shouldn't have said bad luck, it's more like the process is inefficient, both to set up and program, and if I'm getting a machine specifically to do this job TCPC is going to drastically cut down on the hours required. Also, martin trunnion tables don't come with models and anything we model isn't going to be perfect. Plus it'd be nice to keep this machine for the occasional job that needs a 4th and having TCPC would justify this machine staying in my shop.

Though my experience working with a 4th is limited, so maybe I'm putting too much merit into the benefits of TCPC?
 

MaxPrairie

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
I've spoken to my HFO a couple of times, and the 30-week lead time is definitely firm, though I'll definitely ask them to keep me in mind if someone backs out on an order. A VF-2 would be nice but they need 70 amps unless you get a gearbox, but at that point, a new one would really be more than I'm trying to spend. And finding a used one in decent shape with a gearbox and next-gen controls sounds like a nightmare! Though I'm definitely looking...

I will check what my 2 has for required power but 70 amps sounds high. I know at one point I had 2 vf4’s on a 40 amp breaker and never popped it.
 

Cole2534

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
I've spoken to my HFO a couple of times, and the 30-week lead time is definitely firm, though I'll definitely ask them to keep me in mind if someone backs out on an order. A VF-2 would be nice but they need 70 amps unless you get a gearbox, but at that point, a new one would really be more than I'm trying to spend. And finding a used one in decent shape with a gearbox and next-gen controls sounds like a nightmare! Though I'm definitely looking...
The machine may at some extreme point need 70a, but that's not the norm.

Fr'instance, my QT15 wants like 100a service, been running it on a 30a breaker for a year and it's never tripped.

Programmed via Mazatrol
 

RC Mech

Stainless
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Location
Ontario, Canada
Though it’s sort of Rube Goldberg, you can adjust the spindle ramp and decel speeds to not use FLA on speed changes.

I’m in the camp of being limited to 60 A, 600 V 3 phase at the non-day job. Equates to a bit over twice the amps at 240. A clamp meter with 3 mills in cuts showed well below half the 60 A draw in my case.
 

Orange Vise

Stainless
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Location
California
A VF-2 would be nice but they need 70 amps unless you get a gearbox

70A is the nameplate rating.

We have four VFs and three UMCs. When new machines are delivered, we typically set them up on temporary power for the install, in case they need to be moved. Once they've been in place for awhile, we switch to conduit for code reasons. With the aforementioned machines, temp power was typically 10/4 SO cord on a 30A breaker.

Some machines may have been on temporary power for "quite a awhile"...
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
Though it’s sort of Rube Goldberg, you can adjust the spindle ramp and decel speeds to not use FLA on speed changes.

I’m in the camp of being limited to 60 A, 600 V 3 phase at the non-day job. Equates to a bit over twice the amps at 240. A clamp meter with 3 mills in cuts showed well below half the 60 A draw in my case.

I had 100amp 3phase 415volt into each adjacent factory.
When I only had the one factory, at most I had squeezed in:-
3x #40 15hp cnc mills
1x #30 15hp cnc mill
1x 15hp cnc lathe
1x 5hp Prototrak lathe
1x 3hp Prototrak mill
1x 10hp compressor
With the incoming feed clipped with a meter, and everything running (not just spindles turned on but cutting - less the Prototraks), the most the meter read was around 60 to 70 amps.
Lots of times around 50 so wasn't a worry.
It's amazing how little machines draw - spindle start/ramp is usually the worse case.
 

AJ H

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Not a big deal to run a 4th without a next gen you just need to know the center of rotation. Typically, the martin table runs at the same z rotation height as your rotary, set z at this point, I think a HRT210 is 6.000". For Y set the table at A90. probe it, A-90. probe it, split the difference. X doesn't really matter. Probe the top of the part in a different offset and subtract the 6.000 from it, sketch a piece of geometry in your cad model that long and call that your origin. This takes a matter of minutes not hours.
 

couch

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Location
Anaheim, California
Martin has most of the trunnions available for download right on their website, no purchase necessary.

Are you doing simultaneous 4th axis work? If not I’m curious why you need TCPC and not just G54.2 / Dynamic Work Offset (RFO/Etc depending on mfg)

Most MTB’s have this option.

Little higher than your budget but a Brother Speedio S700/W1000 with a rotary and Rotary Fixture Offset / G54.2 will run without question on a 30A breaker. W1000 will for sure fit your XY requirements but an S700 is much smaller and will still be pretty close to your XY requirements. You can stick the rotary all the way outside the X travel and gain a ton of X space with it on a subplate.
 

wheelieking71

Diamond
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Location
Gilbert, AZ
70A is the nameplate rating.

We have four VFs and three UMCs. When new machines are delivered, we typically set them up on temporary power for the install, in case they need to be moved. Once they've been in place for awhile, we switch to conduit for code reasons. With the aforementioned machines, temp power was typically 10/4 SO cord on a 30A breaker.

Some machines may have been on temporary power for "quite a awhile"...

I have 3 VF's (two 2's and a 3) all on 30 amp fuses. One set of fuses is 9 years old. And I push them hard.
 

MaxPrairie

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
2000 Vf4 with gearbox = 40 amps
2015 Vf2 8100 spindle = 70 amps
2018 Vf4 10k spindle with tsc = 60 amps

I think they just grab the closest stamp and punch it.
 

Rob L

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Location
Staffordshire, UK
It's amazing how little machines draw - spindle start/ramp is usually the worse case.
I concur, my little Haas OL-1 has a 20amp breaker switch on the electrical cabinet, I measured what it was actually pulling during a typical program and it was 2.35amps peak iirc, I've run it off a domestic 13amp single phase plug since to free up the 32amp socket I was using and it has been fine.

Only thing I've measured the draw on that was as high as expected or higher was my air compressor.
 

Billy_C

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 18, 2022
70A is the nameplate rating.

We have four VFs and three UMCs. When new machines are delivered, we typically set them up on temporary power for the install, in case they need to be moved. Once they've been in place for awhile, we switch to conduit for code reasons. With the aforementioned machines, temp power was typically 10/4 SO cord on a 30A breaker.

Some machines may have been on temporary power for "quite a awhile"...

30amp w/ 10awg wasn't quite enough on our UMC500 15k. We would get voltage sags and temporary "reduced rapid movements" alarm pretty regularly. This was also about 80ft of wire from the panel which does make a difference. It never tripped the breaker though. I wish Haas would let the end user access spindle acceleration adjustments by default. This would basically make running any Haas on a small breaker a non-issue.
 

Billy_C

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 18, 2022
To the OP, have you looked into something like a used robodrill? Robodrills are nice and sometimes go for less than a Haas equivalent. As far as setting up full 5 on it, I'm not sure what that would take if you don't find one with a trunnion already installed. An older Kitamura might be a good option too. I've seen a few Doosan 5 axis machines pop up here and there. Doosan is a little tricky though because it's starting to become a commodity machine which tends to inflate the resale value just like Haas.
 








 
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