Haas VF-2SS problem running on Phase Perfect Converter

[OMOH]

Hi everyone,

I just finally installed my 2018 Haas VF-2SS in my garage, connect my brand new Phase Perfect PT-030 to the house 200 amp service, then straight to the CNC mill. My machine max FLA is 70 amps, I wire it with 3/0 cable from electrical cabinet to the PP, then 1/0 from PP to the machine. Machine was checked and leveled by HAAS HFO. All the speeds,rapids, feeds work fine, no alarms or sudden shutdowns, at first I notice that worklight LED is flickering, but I didn't pay too much attention to that. I runned the machine for a day or two and then started to hear mills multi tap transformer humming, it got loud especially when it got warmer. Called the HFO tech, they said that they had not much have heard/ had troubles with their machines transformer humming and advice me to check incoming voltages. It's supposed to be all in 120's volts range. I find that T3 to ground is 212 volts, while T1&T2 to ground is 125V. Called the phase perfect support team, they said that T3- to ground 212 volts is normal, and that noise/harmonics can be present in the T3 leg that was made by the converter. They suggest to double check the grounding, and install single phase EMI filter before the converter. I would do that. I understand that it should fix the LED flickering, but would it fix the machine transformer loud humming. I'm really afraid to damage any electrical components on my pretty new mill. I think I bought the best available converter in the market because I heard so much good things about it. I would be glad to hear any suggestions/advice from anyone who had anything like that with their equipment in the past. (sorry for grammatical mistakes)
Thanks, Andrei

 

[BT Fabrication]

some transformers do hum. not quite sure where you are going with this......

 

[pcasanova]

I would go and double check and re-tighten ALL the connections from the breaker to the machines input. And not saying you need to go this far but, had a new machine installed a 1-1/2 ago and when the tech came in to install it and he went into the electrical cabinet and re/tightened all the connectors drives/breakers/plc everything and found 3-4 loose connectors. He said he started doing this when he would get called back for warranty issues and found a lot of the times it was the, as he put it "limp wristted assemblers" didn't finish there job and a loose connection put ghosts into the machine.

 

[Tryhard]

I would go and double check and re-tighten ALL the connections from the breaker to the machines input. And not saying you need to go this far but, had a new machine installed a 1-1/2 ago and when the tech came in to install it and he went into the electrical cabinet and re/tightened all the connectors drives/breakers/plc everything and found 3-4 loose connectors. He said he started doing this when he would get called back for warranty issues and found a lot of the times it was the, as he put it "limp wristted assemblers" didn't finish there job and a loose connection put ghosts into the machine.

PCasanova is correct.

This was absolutely the case for me. Was shocked to find that my screws were barely finger tight from the factory on all incoming wires and down to about 8ga. And this was on an older haas. But unmolested.
Similar setup but in garage shop @ 100amp service and 25hp American rotory phase converter.
Not an electrician by any means, but the guys at American rotory walked me thru measuring my 3phase legs to the machine and it was NOT power legs to ground as described below.

Re-check all connections from main breaker panel all the way thru the circuit to the internal transformer itself in your machine.

How long are your wires on incoming and outgoing sides of your converter?

 

[Tryhard]

Hi everyone,

I just finally installed my 2018 Haas VF-2SS in my garage, connect my brand new Phase Perfect PT-030 to the house 200 amp service, then straight to the CNC mill. My machine max FLA is 70 amps, I wire it with 3/0 cable from electrical cabinet to the PP, then 1/0 from PP to the machine. Machine was checked and leveled by HAAS HFO. All the speeds,rapids, feeds work fine, no alarms or sudden shutdowns, at first I notice that worklight LED is flickering, but I didn't pay too much attention to that. I runned the machine for a day or two and then started to hear mills multi tap transformer humming, it got loud especially when it got warmer. Called the HFO tech, they said that they had not much have heard/ had troubles with their machines transformer humming and advice me to check incoming voltages. It's supposed to be all in 120's volts range. I find that T3 to ground is 212 volts, while T1&T2 to ground is 125V. Called the phase perfect support team, they said that T3- to ground 212 volts is normal, and that noise/harmonics can be present in the T3 leg that was made by the converter. They suggest to double check the grounding, and install single phase EMI filter before the converter. I would do that. I understand that it should fix the LED flickering, but would it fix the machine transformer loud humming. I'm really afraid to damage any electrical components on my pretty new mill. I think I bought the best available converter in the market because I heard so much good things about it. I would be glad to hear any suggestions/advice from anyone who had anything like that with their equipment in the past. (sorry for grammatical mistakes)
Thanks, Andrei

Andrei, also do youtube search for channel named "SPLIT141". Great content on your exact setup.

 

[countryguy]

The archives here have quite a bit. Fun diagram included in this post as well as great theory overview.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...n-rpcs-their-capabilities-195352/#post1265580

these 2 have some fun threading as well:
https://alt.machines.cnc.narkive.com/G2XEffyn/wild-leg-on-rpc-is-230-v-to-ground
Where do we use 1.73 when calculating 3 phase power | Mike Holt's Forum

Both explain or go into why the 212 is normal on your generated leg.

 

[OMOH]

Andrei, also do youtube search for channel named "SPLIT141". Great content on your exact setup.

Thanks for replying.
Already subscribe to the chanell.

Andrei

 

[OMOH]

Thanks for respond "Tryhard" and others. From beginning of having this issue I checked to see if any connection is loose. Looks like everything is tight. The distance from the electrical breaker panel to converter is about 6' from converter to machine is 25'. I'm running on 200 amp service, and my transformer is shared with my neighbor house. I have 175 Amp breaker dedicated for PP (Phase Perfect). Had MTS (Machine Tool Service) technician to check my incoming power source, he hooked the oscilloscope from output of the phase converter and did not find any major problem with sine waves of all outgoing 3 legs. Looks like it has a bit of harmonics, and 3rd leg is not super clean since it's generated. But the technician said that it's ok, and I can run the machine. but I feel that's something is not right, and after discussing with couple electrician friends they suggest to put the isolation transformer to step down the voltage from 247 to 235 V to meet sweet spot of 227-243 V Haas multi tap transformer. This way it would get DC bus voltage in ideal position (335 Volts) and it also should clean some harmonics, which might fix the machine transformer humming. If isolation transformer starts humming, but not the machines, then I don't really care, since it's way cheaper than machine multi-tap transformer, it's a larger size separated unit, which can be air cooled if needed. Also it's safer, since outgoing power from it first goes to machine breaker. I think this way my machine electronics should be safe. I'm still discussing with company where I would purchase custom made transformer how it would be all done. After testing this method I would let you guys know if problem was fixed or it's still persist. But meanwhile, I'm still open for suggestions from anybody. P.S Transformer customer service technician had more suggestion what might be wrong then PP service technicians/engineers. I'm glad that American Rotary service techs is more knowledgeable.

 

[misterboyd]

Thanks for respond "Tryhard" and others. From beginning of having this issue I checked to see if any connection is loose. Looks like everything is tight. The distance from the electrical breaker panel to converter is about 6' from converter to machine is 25'. I'm running on 200 amp service, and my transformer is shared with my neighbor house. I have 175 Amp breaker dedicated for PP (Phase Perfect). Had MTS (Machine Tool Service) technician to check my incoming power source, he hooked the oscilloscope from output of the phase converter and did not find any major problem with sine waves of all outgoing 3 legs. Looks like it has a bit of harmonics, and 3rd leg is not super clean since it's generated. But the technician said that it's ok, and I can run the machine. but I feel that's something is not right, and after discussing with couple electrician friends they suggest to put the isolation transformer to step down the voltage from 247 to 235 V to meet sweet spot of 227-243 V Haas multi tap transformer. This way it would get DC bus voltage in ideal position (335 Volts) and it also should clean some harmonics, which might fix the machine transformer humming. If isolation transformer starts humming, but not the machines, then I don't really care, since it's way cheaper than machine multi-tap transformer, it's a larger size separated unit, which can be air cooled if needed. Also it's safer, since outgoing power from it first goes to machine breaker. I think this way my machine electronics should be safe. I'm still discussing with company where I would purchase custom made transformer how it would be all done. After testing this method I would let you guys know if problem was fixed or it's still persist. But meanwhile, I'm still open for suggestions from anybody. P.S Transformer customer service technician had more suggestion what might be wrong then PP service technicians/engineers. I'm glad that American Rotary service techs is more knowledgeable.

hey OMOH did you end up finding a solution to your noise concerns? i just installed a very similar set up at my home and have the noisy transformer issue that you have mentioned. thanks- ryan

 

[OMOH]

Hi,

Glad that this might help somebody.
So my CNC machine internal transformer humming is gone, running like that for more than 6 months.
I installed 45 KVA 3 phase isolation transformer, I step down the voltages from ~246 Volts to 236. I got 250-240 Volt transformer which was customer build by Maddox Industrial Transformer and cost me $2600. I put it after Phase Perfect Converter. Now my machine incoming voltages is about 235-236 V and Haas DC bus Voltage indicator shows about 327 V, which is almost perfect. How do you convert to 3 Phase?

Andrei

 

[Garwood]

Are you maybe putting on "/0" on the wire gauge when their isn't in real life?

I have 2/0 coming off a 200 amp single phase supply into my 60HP RPC then most of the distribution is with 3 gauge.

3/0 is very difficult to connect to a single phase residential breaker panel.

 

[OMOH]

Yes, I put 3/0 to the panel. It was very hard to install. I also was stupid enough to purchase aluminium wires not copper but never had issues because of that.
On 60 HP RPC you can push up to 84 amps I think. Do not overload it since your lights might start dimming on startups and you might piss off the neighbors.
Calculate what really gauge you need for the individual machine. On my VF-2SS 70 amps is the max load, I run it on 2 gauge wires.
On RPC make sure your generated leg voltage is balanced, the CNC hate voltage fluctuation. They can tolerate voltage disbalance about 5% max. Depends on brand.
Also you can play with switching the wires going to machine. Make sure that it's in phase, On haas it has the indicator in electrical cabinet if your power is out of phase, also haas tech recommended to put generated leg to machine T2 line. I hate USA power lines, why not to have more available 3 phase power in residential zone, or at least charge affordable price to get it to where you needed.

 

[misterboyd]

Hi,

Glad that this might help somebody.
So my CNC machine internal transformer humming is gone, running like that for more than 6 months.
I installed 45 KVA 3 phase isolation transformer, I step down the voltages from ~246 Volts to 236. I got 250-240 Volt transformer which was customer build by Maddox Industrial Transformer and cost me $2600. I put it after Phase Perfect Converter. Now my machine incoming voltages is about 235-236 V and Haas DC bus Voltage indicator shows about 327 V, which is almost perfect. How do you convert to 3 Phase?

Andrei

i have a phase perfect pt30- i will inquire about the transformer- that was all you had to do to quiet the unit completely?
thanks!
ryan

 

[johansen]

Had MTS (Machine Tool Service) technician to check my incoming power source, he hooked the oscilloscope from output of the phase converter and did not find any major problem with sine waves of all outgoing 3 legs. Looks like it has a bit of harmonics, and 3rd leg is not super clean since it's generated. But the technician said that it's ok, and I can run the machine. but I feel that's something is not right, and after discussing with couple electrician friends they suggest to put the isolation transformer to step down the voltage from 247 to 235 V to meet sweet spot of 227-243 V Haas multi tap transformer. This way it would get DC bus voltage in ideal position (335 Volts) and it also should clean some harmonics, which might fix the machine transformer humming. If isolation transformer starts humming, but not the machines, then I don't really care, since it's way cheaper than machine multi-tap transformer, it's a larger size separated unit, which can be air cooled if needed.

in general, transformers don't clean up harmonics.

however, when you use a star delta transformer to get 120/208 from the phase perfect, you do get a 30 degree phase shift and what this does is it spreads the harmonics from the single generated leg, into two of them. so if you use an oscope to measure the voltage to ground, the 208 generated leg of the phase perfect is going to be spread out across two of the 120/208 phases so they may look a little better after the transformer but electrically it makes no difference.

what would clean it up a little bit, is to put a couple kva worth of capacitors on the output of the transformer.
this would be electrically very similar to buying a 3% line load reactor and then adding the caps. (but instead you're taking advantage of the leakage inductance of the transformer to do the same thing)

now, what i am concerned about as the cause of transformer "buzzing"
Is there may be a dc offset to the generated phase of the phase perfect, this dc offset could vary from one unit to another, with time, and the time of day.

Certain APC uninterruptable power supplies have this problem as well, but its internal to the transformer inside it, not on the 120v ac output.

such a dc offset will be removed by an isolation transformer but it won't be removed by a buckboost transformer in the case of folks using an open delta two transformer system to reduce the voltage.

 

[dwbar00]

Hi everyone,

I just finally installed my 2018 Haas VF-2SS in my garage, connect my brand new Phase Perfect PT-030 to the house 200 amp service, then straight to the CNC mill. My machine max FLA is 70 amps, I wire it with 3/0 cable from electrical cabinet to the PP, then 1/0 from PP to the machine. Machine was checked and leveled by HAAS HFO. All the speeds,rapids, feeds work fine, no alarms or sudden shutdowns, at first I notice that worklight LED is flickering, but I didn't pay too much attention to that. I runned the machine for a day or two and then started to hear mills multi tap transformer humming, it got loud especially when it got warmer. Called the HFO tech, they said that they had not much have heard/ had troubles with their machines transformer humming and advice me to check incoming voltages. It's supposed to be all in 120's volts range. I find that T3 to ground is 212 volts, while T1&T2 to ground is 125V. Called the phase perfect support team, they said that T3- to ground 212 volts is normal, and that noise/harmonics can be present in the T3 leg that was made by the converter. They suggest to double check the grounding, and install single phase EMI filter before the converter. I would do that. I understand that it should fix the LED flickering, but would it fix the machine transformer loud humming. I'm really afraid to damage any electrical components on my pretty new mill. I think I bought the best available converter in the market because I heard so much good things about it. I would be glad to hear any suggestions/advice from anyone who had anything like that with their equipment in the past. (sorry for grammatical mistakes)
Thanks, Andrei

Hey Andrei, I have a 2017 Haas VF2 setup in my garage on a 200A Service using a PT-020. I have experienced the same issue where my transformer has an electrical buzz or humming sound and its quite concerning. All my parameters as far as income voltage, tap settings, AC/DC was nominal. For me, this was part of a cycle in that I'd eventually go to power on the Haas VF2 and it wouldn't power up. I'd go to the electrical cabinet and find the "Blown Fuse" was lit. Id replace my 5x20mm 250MA 250V fuse and then the machine would power up just fine. With regards to the electrical humming, at first, I didn't make the connection but when I replaced the fuse the humming went away. Today, upon power up if I get that humming right off the bat I still go through the startup sequence, power up, cycle the door, ect. and once complete I shut the machine off as normal. Then I go to the electrical cabinet and replace my 5x20mm 250MA 250V fuse even if the blown fuse light is not on. Sometimes the fuse I take out looks slightly warn, other times the fuse I take out looks great. Never the less I replace the fuse, power up, and the humming is gone.

When I run my VF2 I modify the G-Code to do stepped ramp ups to protect the electrical system (that is = what electricity I have available in my 200A service, the capabilities of the PT-020, and how much electricity my VF2 demands at times) In short, this stepped ramp up helps me reduce the power my VF2 demands from my PT020. Before I implemented stepped ramp ups, when I called for a 0-10K spindle ramp up, the VF2 would ask a lot of my PT-020 all at once and as a result the display on the PT-020 would show a wide fluctuation for a brief moment. Say 245V 263V 225V. As you can imagine this 263V spike would damage the 250MA 250V slow blow fuse for a moment. Over time this caused the fuse to blow.

To avoid this I do a stepped ramp up, for example;

;
M00 ;
(Check Air Compressor) ;
;
s5000 M3
G04 P3.0
s7000 M3

You can see I also check to see if the air compressor is about to kick on during the ramp up. For me and my electrical setup that would cause an overload. So, to get rid of the humming noise replace the fuse when you hear the humming. To help protect the fuse and perhaps the electrical system do a spindle ramp up to keep the legs close together and under 250V. I am going to do some research to see if I can by pass this slow blow fuse with a stronger fuse. My hope is that a stronger fuse will keep me from humming while not allowing to much voltage through the system to cause damage. I imagine I will just have to keep ordering fuses online, not through Haas though as that can get expensive.

After reading through some of the responses on this thread it seems that the common idea is to protect the 250MA 250V fuse or equivalent. I think that by stepping down the voltage away from 250V the fuse lasts longer and keeps the humming at bay. You would have to talk to an electrician or Haas tech to understand more about why IMO this fuse damage is linked to transformer humming. In my scenario, the display on my PT-020 is close to 250V. Some days the PT-020 display reads an avg of 244 others its 247V and during idle times and high incoming residential voltages (247ish) the manufactured leg(s) my briefly touch 250V. In any case I believe that when this fuse becomes damaged, even if not visually, contributes to the transformer humming. Perhaps I may look into a 250MA 300V 5x20 Slow or perhaps fast blow fuse if there is such a thing.

 

[D Farms]

Are you maybe putting on "/0" on the wire gauge when their isn't in real life?

I have 2/0 coming off a 200 amp single phase supply into my 60HP RPC then most of the distribution is with 3 gauge.

3/0 is very difficult to connect to a single phase residential breaker panel.

I ran 4/0 aluminum from my 400 amp main to 200 amp sub.

 

[Garwood]

Aluminum wire is problematic stuff.

I've been running on RPC power for 17 years. I can tell you if you get into big boy machines copper wire and copper lugs are the only way to go. Aluminum, even installed perfectly with the goop and torqued to spec will loosen in months.

My 60HP RPC is perfectly happy with a 100 amps @ 240V 3 phase continuous load and it draws 177 amps 240 single phase coming in when doing it.

I used an infrared temp gun to find all the choke points in the system and correct them so I could run what I needed to.

 

[D Farms]

Aluminum wire is problematic stuff.

I've been running on RPC power for 17 years. I can tell you if you get into big boy machines copper wire and copper lugs are the only way to go. Aluminum, even installed perfectly with the goop and torqued to spec will loosen in months.

My 60HP RPC is perfectly happy with a 100 amps @ 240V 3 phase continuous load and it draws 177 amps 240 single phase coming in when doing it.

I used an infrared temp gun to find all the choke points in the system and correct them so I could run what I needed to.

I ran aluminum to the phase converter box, then I ran the 3 phase run in copper that was significantly more flexible for that exact reason.