What's new
What's new

Hardinge collet closer help

xmprx

Plastic
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Just finishing up getting my Hardinge Cnc set up, after days of hunting down the 1 loose wire that was causing the jog function to halt, it is now up and running. I have never worked with a collet closer and I am a little stumped. the knurled nut on the end that I assumed was attached to the draw bar has set screws drilled through it. how the hell dose the collet release? also the rotary shaft or "clutch" has 2 air lines. both line cause the collet to actuate to the closed position. I am hoping someone on here is familiar with this set up or something similar.
thanks!
aazqk5w.jpg
[/IMG]
CtbasCg.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Not sure if I can help you on the adjustment as that set up looks a lot different than my HXL. Assuming yours has a similar heritage one of the air lines should close the collet and the other opens it.

I have not run my yet still need some get around to it time. I did adjust the collet once but the machine was taken down to replace the spindle and collet bearings, so I do not have the adjusting procedures down.

What machine is that?
 
I have a manual so taking a swag at it. The knurled nob is to hand tighten the tube that threads on to the back of a collet. The aluminum piece is a cylinder with a piston that is attached to the same tube. The inboard air line moves the piston to the left to close the collet and the outboard moves the tube to the right to release. This could be confirmed by removing the hoses and just blow air in at each port with a nozzle. If that works then check the valve plumbing. How's that for a swag.
 
This could be confirmed by removing the hoses and just blow air in at each port with a nozzle. If that works then check the valve plumbing. How's that for a swag.

Good call on the checking with an air nozzle just blowing into the hoses or fittings. My HXL was received stripped down (no valves or hoses) and that is how I checked it and attempted to pull the piston apart to access the rough bearings. Bad valves are the most likely cause of the OP's problem. Closer piston would really have to be messed up to be the cause.
 
Ok so I have made some progress, I can't really explain what was going on but it is working now. originally I hooked up an airline to one side and it was blowing through the the unit and exhausting out the other side. like the air ports were connected. so I dead headed the other line and it shifted and closed the collet like it should, I thought that was strange so I switched the airline over to the other side and dead headed the non used line, closed again like it should. both airline lines pushed the valve into the closed position. after working it some time it started sliding further and seating both ways. it must have been stuck in the middle some how and engaging closed through both ports. I have found out it is a royal collet closer. it has a pretty bad wobble and is going to beed a rebuild, sounds like royal still has the seals.

xfFblUr.png
[/IMG]
 
here is a picture of the lathe, can anyone give me some info on the exact Hardinge Model that this is? the only Identification that it has on it besides the Hardinge super precision sticker is the CNC solutions inc serial number.
ip5XHEJ.jpg
[/IMG]
 
The OPs lathe does not have the T slot below the dovetail like my AHC or the one in the ad linked by Larry. My HXL has bosses to mount the ball screw in the front. CHNCs would probably have the same bosses for the Z axis ball screw. The head stock in the OPs photo does have the mounting surface for the overhead cut off like both the AHC and HXL have. The spindle lock is different than either of mine.

It is a mystery to me. Like Larry said there may be a clue in the on the serial number plate.
 
Looked at the OPs photo again and I see a bearing mount surface under the slide and one under the far right on the bed. Mystery Hardinge may have been an early CHNC with a 5C spindle originally. Definitely not an AHC or HXL. Attached photos of my AHC with an Omniturn and a stripped HXL bed. Note the T-slot and pinion and rack area under the T-slot on the AHC. HXL bed has a bearing mount under the head stock and on the far right of the bed.

HXLFrontRS.jpgAHCrs.jpg
 
The OPs lathe does not have the T slot below the dovetail like my AHC or the one in the ad linked by Larry. My HXL has bosses to mount the ball screw in the front. CHNCs would probably have the same bosses for the Z axis ball screw. The head stock in the OPs photo does have the mounting surface for the overhead cut off like both the AHC and HXL have. The spindle lock is different than either of mine.

It is a mystery to me. Like Larry said there may be a clue in the on the serial number plate.


I have searched this thing Hi and Low, no serial numbers that I can find. I see the screws where the the Hardinge machinery plate was, it must have been removed at some point. the only numbers that I can find are stamped into the retaining ring on the spindle nose that read NH1294
 
Still going with the early CHNC. Really does not matter much. The bed and spindle made by Hardinge are fairly bullet proof. You have collet closer, slide, and control built by someone else. The manufactures of those will be your source of advice and parts. My Omnitun converted Hardinge and Tsugami chuckers hardly ever need service or parts.

A lot of people use Omniturn tool holders on their GT type machines. I do not own a single one. All my tool holders were made by Hardinge for the CHNC type machines. I can do set ups with many tools and pack them in tight for fast safe set ups. I have worked with members here on setting up their machines. I like the machines that use the 1/2 centerline tool holders, the tool holders are cheaper and the 1/2 tools are more accurate and rigid than the 3/8 tools. On yours whatever you have is what you have. just know which (3/8 or 1/2) know before you order any tools.

Sample set up with 8 tools packed in tight. Old Omniturns had only 10 inches of travel newer ones with 12 inches of travel would probably allow 10 tools on a set up.
https://youtu.be/_cIuIPj7-UI
 
Last edited:
Still going with the early CHNC. Really does not matter much. The bed and spindle made by Hardinge are fairly bullet proof. You have collet closer, slide, and control built by someone else. The manufactures of those will be your source of advice and parts. My Omnitun converted Hardinge and Tsugami chuckers hardly ever need service or parts.

A lot of people use Omniturn tool holders on their GT type machines. I do not own a single one. All my tool holders were made by Hardinge for the CHNC type machines. I can do set ups with many tools and pack them in tight for fast safe set ups. I have worked with members here on setting up their machines. I like the machines that use the 1/2 centerline tool holders, the tool holders are cheaper and the 1/2 tools are more accurate and rigid than the 3/8 tools. On yours whatever you have is what you have. just know which (3/8 or 1/2) know before you order any tools.

Sample set up with 8 tools packed in tight. Old Omniturns had only 10 inches of travel newer ones with 12 inches of travel would probably allow 10 tools on a set up.
https://youtu.be/_cIuIPj7-UI

Do you by chance have a manual or any info on your CHNC? The company that sold the machines is long out of business. This is my first hardinge and there are a few things I would like to addresses. When I first ran the machine the collet closer had a ton of runout and I assumed that’s where the vibration in the head stock was coming from. After pulling it apart and adjusting it I have less but still some vibration. I noticed that the 6 bolt ring holding the spindle nose was loose so now I’m wondering if the spindle needs adjusting or preloading. The machine is level but I’m a little confused with the machine mounts to the stand. On the headstock side there are 3 bolts. 1 center bolt and 2 outside of it with springs. I snuged up the center bolt that was loose as it goes straight through the stand into the lathe base. The other 2 just compress the springs. The rear mount also has this spring set up. Also the contact area in the spindle nose for the 5c collet has some dings that look like someone closed a collet without it being adjust right and scraped it up.
 
"I noticed that the 6 bolt ring holding the spindle nose was loose so now I’m wondering if the spindle needs adjusting or preloading."

I just looked at my 16C Hardinge spindle it has ten screw holes. Clearly not discussing a 16C to 5C adapter. What is the distance from the bed to the spindle center line? CHNC will be 7 inches, HC and AHC will be 6 5/8 more or less. So the 6 screws discussed are on the spindle cover. It does press on the outer ring of front bearing but does not affect preload. The screws ought to be moderately tight to keep the cover from getting loose and to prevent chips and coolant from getting into the front bearing. This cover has a labyrinth to keep oil and coolant out of the bearing.
When running the spindle with the drawbar installed you must have a collet installed otherwise the drawbar and spindle will be damaged and possible vibrate. Hardinge does say pull the draw bar out to prevent damage to the drawbar and spindle when running a manual chuck or some other spindle fixture. That Royal closer needs to be well fitted to center the draw tube to prevent vibration. How does it run without the closer and draw tube? Picture please of the spindle nose without the splash shield.

Went back and looked at your photos. That should be a native 5C collet spindle with no adapter. There is not enough room inside your slash shield for a 16C spindle. The Royal closer could have worn bearings causing vibration.


"On the headstock side there are 3 bolts. 1 center bolt and 2 outside of it with springs. I snuged up the center bolt that was loose as it goes straight through the stand into the lathe base. The other 2 just compress the springs. The rear mount also has this spring set up."

All Hardinge lathes I know of in this class have floating beds. A cabinet out of level will not twist the bed and cause taper cuts. You should loosen that center bolt with no spring so that the bed floats on the springs. I am guessing the center bolt was for transport and should be loose when the machine is set up on the floor.

I bought a manual for my HXL but it is different from the CHNC in a lot of ways.
 
Last edited:
"I noticed that the 6 bolt ring holding the spindle nose was loose so now I’m wondering if the spindle needs adjusting or preloading."

That changes things, if it had been a CHNC built with 5C there would be no adapter. Now you make me think this is a 16C machine with an aftermarket or possibly Hardinge 5C adapter. How about a photo of the spindle nose showing the 6 bolts? What is the distance from the bed to the spindle center line? CHNC will be 7 inches, HC and AHC will be 6 5/8 more or less. If this thing has a 16C to 5C adapter there will be lots of room for the draw tube to be off center and vibrate. If adapted never run the spindle without a collet. Not recommended for a regular machine and especially not for an adapted spindle. Whenever you run a manual chuck on these collet machines, Hardinge say pull the draw bar out to prevent damage to the drawbar and spindle. Good fitting adapters will be needed to center the draw tube if indeed your machine is adapted. How does it run without the closer draw tube and "5C" adapter? This whole paragraph may be nonsense. Picture please without the splash shield.

Went back and looked at your photos. That should be a native 5C collet spindle. There is not enough room inside your slash shield for a 16C spindle. The Royal closer could have worn bearings causing vibration. Or it is not running centered in the spindle. You do have a collet in there? Six screws on the bearing cover should be tight, preload is internal on the spindle and the nut in back. Sloppy loose on the bearing cover could let chips into the bearing grease which would be bad. It may have a hole in the bottom to allow cutting oil and coolant to drain away from the bearings.


"On the headstock side there are 3 bolts. 1 center bolt and 2 outside of it with springs. I snuged up the center bolt that was loose as it goes straight through the stand into the lathe base. The other 2 just compress the springs. The rear mount also has this spring set up."

All the Hardinge lathes I know of in this class have floating beds. A cabinet out of level will not twist the bed and cause taper cuts. You should loosen that center bolt with no spring, I am guessing it was for transport and should be loose when the machine is set up on the floor.

I bought a manual for my HXL but it is different from the CHNC in a lot of ways.


thank you Fred,
so the mounting system to the stand makes perfect sense now that I think about it, originally I thought it was the closer but when I pulled it off along with he draw bar it had less but still a descent vibration. im showing .0002 runout on the ID of the spindle nose. Im thinking something may be up internally. without a manual or a good starting point I don't really want to attempt any inspections or adjustments. I called Hardinge and sent them pictures and they simply refuse to give look into anything without a serial number.
 
Vibration can come from the pulleys and motor also. No idea if your machine has a varidrive or the spindle is driven by a single belt with variable speed drive. Spindle is now a concern as they should not run out that much and you mentioned some internal damage. Closing a collet without a part generally does no damage to the spindle, a real gouge portends something with a hammer.
I may accidentally have a CHNC book I will check. Never owned one. I think I saw one in person once.
 
I do have a CHNC manual. it has information on repair and maintenance of the cut off slide. I purchased a slide that appears to be the same. CHNC and HXL may have shared the exact same slide. Your CHNC bed and headstock do not match the ones in the illustrations (spindle encoder housing is different). Judging from the illustrations I would say the spindle in this manual is 5C. Not sure when 16c became predominant or if 5C was an option on later machines. No info in the manual on spindle repair or bearing arrangement or replacement. Only removing and replacing the head stock. Because there is no info on spindle and bearings in this manual it would not do you any good.
I did remove the head stock on my HXL. With the double bearings on both ends I had mine rebuilt by a machine rebuilder. They also did the collet closer with a new housing made by Hardinge. Hardinge would not rebuild my headstock because it is an HXL, they would have rebuilt a CHNC. If I was to do it over, I would have shipped it to SKF for the bearing replacement. Many years ago, I replaced the bearings in my Tsugami chucker. Made a couple of mistakes doing it but it still runs pretty good and has been less trouble than doing it over.

How close does the OD of the spindle run. I would expect you could indicate on the taper if it is taper nose or the boss behind the threads if it has a threaded nose. If runout on the outside is nonexistent then inside taper runout is just wear, there is a member here that regrinds mill spindle tapers. Not sure if he could redo the collet angle taper. If it is just wear, then that is not the source of your vibration. I would look at motor mounts, pulley, and such.
 
I do have a CHNC manual. it has information on repair and maintenance of the cut off slide. I purchased a slide that appears to be the same. CHNC and HXL may have shared the exact same slide. Your CHNC bed and headstock do not match the ones in the illustrations (spindle encoder housing is different). Judging from the illustrations I would say the spindle in this manual is 5C. Not sure when 16c became predominant or if 5C was an option on later machines. No info in the manual on spindle repair or bearing arrangement or replacement. Only removing and replacing the head stock. Because there is no info on spindle and bearings in this manual it would not do you any good.
I did remove the head stock on my HXL. With the double bearings on both ends I had mine rebuilt by a machine rebuilder. They also did the collet closer with a new housing made by Hardinge. Hardinge would not rebuild my headstock because it is an HXL, they would have rebuilt a CHNC. If I was to do it over, I would have shipped it to SKF for the bearing replacement. Many years ago, I replaced the bearings in my Tsugami chucker. Made a couple of mistakes doing it but it still runs pretty good and has been less trouble than doing it over.

How close does the OD of the spindle run. I would expect you could indicate on the taper if it is taper nose or the boss behind the threads if it has a threaded nose. If runout on the outside is nonexistent then inside taper runout is just wear, there is a member here that regrinds mill spindle tapers. Not sure if he could redo the collet angle taper. If it is just wear, then that is not the source of your vibration. I would look at motor mounts, pulley, and such.

Thanks for taken a look Fred,
the runout behind the threads is showing a few tenths, but it has a little pitting, the project is on the back burner for a while, I am more concerned with the vibration I am getting, Im suspect of the drive pulley now. I will call Hardinge and see if they can track anything down for a CHNC before I tear into it blind.
 
Just looked in the manual on changing the belt. They do have a photo of the motor pully. It is a multipiece unit that could be assembled incorrectly and give you problems. Easiest way to check is lift the motor and tie the belt out of the way and spin it looking for runout then turn it on to check motor and pulley balance. I can copy individual pages out of this manual if you need it. Probably do it in PDF so I would have to email you the pages. Your machine does not exactly look like the machine in the manual but probably shares a lot of similar details. I attached a photo of my HXL with the serial number tag. Location is similar to the AHC. I can see the 4 hole dimples under the paint on the AHC. Someone removed it and painted over. You may find the same on yours. Other Hardinges are stamped onto the castings.


HXLSerial#RS.jpg
 








 
Back
Top