Hardinge DSM/DV59 in excellent condition with tons of tooling

[Garwood]

See post #5

This is hilarious!

This guy straight up ASKS for our opinions on his pricing, flips out over the suggestions, denies ever asking $5k in the beginning, then edits his original post to reflect a lower asking price then gets caught in a lie because his original post was quoted.

"Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I didn't realize none of my tooling is desirable and my machine has a lower value than I thought." Would be something close to an appropriate response IMO.

The last person in the world that needs a turret lathe is some broke fool just starting out. They need good god damn advice from someone who's been there and got the T-shirt and that advice would definitely not have anything whatsoever to do with "Go buy a turret lathe". The modern equivalent to a turret lathe is a 90's CNC lathe with a barfeeder.

You're customer is some kind of collector that thinks Hardinge is neat and has no need to make a profit.

 

[Jaxian]

This site is hilarious.

I sold a 1980 Lagun FTV-1 $8000, a 1984 Tida TD-6B $6500, and 1953 Cincinnati No.4 horizontal $4000, at Christmas time this year. All in fully functional but nothing special condition. I had a waiting list of 4 for the Lagun and 3 for the Tida if they fell through. Took one week for those and month for the Cincinnati. On this site they would have been "you will be lucky to get $2500 for the lot".

I can't believe anyone tries to sell machines or ask pricing here. This is NOT were you find real world prices.

I bought two new (old) machines that better fit my present work with no money out of pocket even with the $3750 rigging fee to move the new machines in. PM is for parts and accessories. Machine pricing is always silly low.

Maybe it's just this area, but I doubt it. All major metropolitan areas seem to have pricing like here.

 

[Garwood]

This site is hilarious.

I sold a 1980 Lagun FTV-1 $8000, a 1984 Tida TD-6B $6500, and 1953 Cincinnati No.4 horizontal $4000, at Christmas time this year. All in fully functional but nothing special condition. I had a waiting list of 4 for the Lagun and 3 for the Tida if they fell through. Took one week for those and month for the Cincinnati. On this site they would have been "you will be lucky to get $2500 for the lot".

I can't believe anyone tries to sell machines or ask pricing here. This is NOT were you find real world prices.

I bought two new (old) machines that better fit my present work with no money out of pocket even with the $3750 rigging fee to move the new machines in. PM is for parts and accessories. Machine pricing is always silly low.

Maybe it's just this area, but I doubt it. All major metropolitan areas seem to have pricing like here.

WTF do those machines have to do with a turret lathe? You understand that a turret lathe is 110% obsolete technology today right?

Notice how this thread is filled with questions about what tooling comes with the machine and asking to buy the tooling separately? That's because you need a ton of specialized tooling to make simple parts with a collet nosed turret lathe. The bare machine is essentially useless. Setting the machine up to make one part is tedious, especially since everyone who was good at it died 30 years ago. Do you know what style of box tool to use and how to set it up? Do you know where to get chasers for that J&L head that came in the chip pan? How do you setup that collet closer just right anyway? These are the questions you will face just to make a part.

Oh, you say the turret lathe is good at making more than one part? Like when you need 10 or 20? Neato! But wait, don't you have to man the machine the whole time, pull the levers and do all the things? How do you run your business while you run those levers?

A modern-ish engine lathe, a Bridgeport type mill, things along those lines are kinda timeless. They're good at making one part. At repair type work. They have strong demand and value today and fair condition.

Your comparison does not work.

 

[sfriedberg]

Garwood, I'm not going to claim a manually operated turret lathe is the latest thing in high productivity turning. But I think you seriously understate their value for short-ish runs (10-250 parts). And learning how to set one up, and how the tooling works, is not rocket science. I found it fun to learn, and I have absolutely zero regrets about the money and (even more precious) shop floor space I've invested in mine.

Not everybody has a use for one, and there are certainly more modern alternatives. But don't go drowning the baby when you drain the bath, please.

Not exactly the same, cam-operated screw machines still beat out CNC machines for cycle times on comparable parts. I can't pull the levers on my DSM-59 as fast as a B&S 00 can cycle, but I can turn a bar of stock into parts pretty quickly all the same.

 

[DocsMachine]

Garwood, I'm not going to claim a manually operated turret lathe is the latest thing in high productivity turning. But I think you seriously understate their value for short-ish runs (10-250 parts).

-Again, HGR, for one, sells Hardinge lathes, DV and otherwise, turret and otherwise, like it's cheap beer on free-pretzel night.

From my idle looking, they've sold six just since this thread started. (Admittedly one was an HLV-H.)

Just because one person has no use for one, doesn't mean nobody has use for them. I have two CNC lathes (admittedly one a home-shop conversion) and still use my W&S turret fairly regularly.

Doc.

 

[Jaxian]

Your comparison does not work.

Yes it does because the exact same response this guy is getting to this turret lathe can be seen on every response for machines for sale that isn't a giveaway price. Seen it for lathes, mills, drill sharpeners and on and on. I am not debating whether anyone wants a turret lathe, I would suspect not but that's not my point.

My point was this same level of hostile (but we're just being honest !!!") response this guy got happens on basically any machine that isn't at wholesale good deal prices. If I had $100 for every "we just scrapped a machine just like that" I could retire.

Not everyone knows where to look for cheap machines. Not everyone knows a guy. All those Craigslist flunkies are buying machines for prices you can't imagine. They just have to be clean and functional. All three of mine sold on Craigslist, fast. Stop trying to sell machines to seasoned machinists. Unless you like dimes on the dollar.

 

[Mark Rand]

No, the problem is that Vangard said it came with tons of tooling and we haven't, yet, seen any sign of that tooling. It's as simple as that. A turret lathe without tooling is an expensive boat anchor and roller tools, box tools, die heads etc are of limited use without the turret lathe.

 

[Garwood]

Garwood, I'm not going to claim a manually operated turret lathe is the latest thing in high productivity turning. But I think you seriously understate their value for short-ish runs (10-250 parts). And learning how to set one up, and how the tooling works, is not rocket science. I found it fun to learn, and I have absolutely zero regrets about the money and (even more precious) shop floor space I've invested in mine.

Not everybody has a use for one, and there are certainly more modern alternatives. But don't go drowning the baby when you drain the bath, please.

Not exactly the same, cam-operated screw machines still beat out CNC machines for cycle times on comparable parts. I can't pull the levers on my DSM-59 as fast as a B&S 00 can cycle, but I can turn a bar of stock into parts pretty quickly all the same.

How much have you spent for yours, including tooling and how many $$$ has it billed? Just a best estimate would be fine.

It's usually setup time and versatility that put a beater old CNC way ahead of a turret lathe.

I have no doubt there are parts out there somewhere that can be made on a manual turret lathe, but why?

 

[sfriedberg]

How much have you spent for yours, including tooling and how many $$$ has it billed? Just a best estimate would be fine.

$2500 for the machine and most of the major components for both the DV- and DSM- configurations and a healthy number of turret tools and cross-slide toolblocks. Probably another $500-750 cash to fill several drawers of a tool cabinet with tooling, another $150 to buy a tailstock, plus quite a few hours (didn't count) refurbishing used tooling. (See this PM comment for specifics.)

I have a more-than-full-time day job, and don't make daily revenue from my home shop, so $$$ billed isn't relevant for judging the utility of any of my machines.

 

[DocsMachine]

I have no doubt there are parts out there somewhere that can be made on a manual turret lathe, but why?

-So far this year:

Two jobs of 20-25 pieces in which it was FAR faster to throw some tools at the turret, than write a program and set up gang tools.

At least one job in which the CNC was already occupied.

Three "second op" jobs- one on the turret, two on the little HSL.

One in which the turret was used to produce blanks for the CNC, since I don't yet have a bar feeder. Rough bore, then part to length.

And, one job, similarly making blanks, where the turret could push a 21/32" indexible spade drill, through a piece of 303, considerably faster than the CNC could spot drill, pilot drill, and then enlarge in two steps.

I also use it a LOT for general drilling- if I have a hole deeper than about 2" in aluminum, or an inch or so in steel, and/or of a fairly decent size, most of the time I'll plug it into the turret, where the capstan wheel makes drilling a LOT easier than a tailstock wheel.

Again, just because you don't have a need, or can't think of a use, doesn't mean no one else does, either.

Doc.

 

[jim rozen]

Heck doc why not buy the machine and put this thread outa its misry. Not me thanks, I've got two already. One's a zero-hours ESM 59 that came with all the bells and whistles for 600 bucks. So there's that data point....

 

[DocsMachine]

Actually, I just bought the HSL about this time last year, specifically as a second-op machine for the turret and the then-forthco0ming proper CNC.

And as I mentioned earlier, that's proven so handy for a ton of things, that I do kind of wish I'd picked up a 'full size' DV-59 or similar. If I had, you bet I'd have a turret for it as well- I don't have much 5/8" tooling left, but that'd be an easy fix- turret tooling is cheap and ubiquitous.

Doc.

 

[jim rozen]

Mine's a splt bed, but it came with a hex-type turret, double tool cross slide, a regular tailstock and a toolmaker's compound. Some 5/8 turret stuff but I've added a bunch more, and a headstock mounted cut-off. Which is frankly amazing. You'd probably enjoy that dv-59 if he'd come down a bit. I was super lucky to get that split bed so cheap. The tailstock still had the hardinge cosmoline on it.

 

[DDoug]

Yes, they are still used daily, in production, somewhere.

However, can it make enough money to pay off the OP's price ?

 

[triumph406]

Yes, they are still used daily, in production, somewhere.

However, can it make enough money to pay off the OP's price ?

India, Pakistan, and apparently Southcentral AK

 

[Milland]

India, Pakistan, and apparently Southcentral AK

Do they make squat-shop AKs in AK? Who needs the Khyber Pass, we have our own!

 

[DocsMachine]

However, can it make enough money to pay off the OP's price ?

-How soon do you need it paid off? Within a year? In the first quarter? In it's first job?

If you're using it as a "second op" machine, when would you consider it 'paid off'?

The small start-up that can't afford anything else, but it lets them get a proverbial "foot in the door" on making their first product- how and when would you say they should consider it "paid off"?

Doc.

 

[DocsMachine]

Do they make squat-shop AKs in AK? Who needs the Khyber Pass, we have our own!

-Not AKs, but I know a TON of people with those AR drilling jigs.

Doc.

 

[jim rozen]

-.
If you're using it as a "second op" machine, when would you consider it 'paid off'?
....

To paraphrase A_Night_at_the_Opera, I suggest that as long as the owner doesn't use it too often, he might break even.

 

[DDoug]

India, Pakistan, and apparently Southcentral AK

I'll wager the first (2) places don't pay nearly that much for the machine.