Help Identifying a Horizontal Mill Attachment (and find it a good home)

[JohnnyBouncewell]

Hey guys. I picked this up last month accidentally at an auction. It was one of those "contents of these shelves" lots and this behemoth was hidden behind a bunch of other stuff. My knowledge of horizontal mills is quite limited, hell this could even be something else entirely. I really hate scrapping stuff like this when I reckon someone out there would love to have this in their shop.

Anyways, the shop had an older Cincinnati No 1 and a newer Cincinnati Cinel 60 205-12. The only vertical mill was a milltronic something or other (owner took it home before they went under). Given the overall appearance of this attachment, I'm more inclined to think it belongs to the No 1. It appears to have an NT40 or Cat40 taper. The ways are ~8.25" on the minor. I couldn't get any of my instruments inside to measure the gear but if needed, I'll figure something out.

Here are a few pics with all of the markings I could find on it. Thanks in advance for your help! Mods, feel free to bump this to another thread if this is not the best place for it. Let me know if anyone needs to see other pictures and/or measurements.

 

[JohnnyBouncewell]

Here a few more pics showing the drive gear and the graduation scale.

 

[140mower]

That looks as though it might fit my old K&T 1A. Probably too far away to do me much good, but if I can get you any measurements, let me know.
Don

 

[JST]

It does appear to be a vertical head that would fit on the knee ways on column front to engage with a gear on the H-spindle (some are direct drive).

No idea what it fits, but many mills have the dovetail ways going up past the H-spindle, including at least some Cincinnatti.

 

[JohnnyBouncewell]

That looks as though it might fit my old K&T 1A. Probably too far away to do me much good, but if I can get you any measurements, let me know.
Don

It does appear to be a vertical head that would fit on the knee ways on column front to engage with a gear on the H-spindle (some are direct drive).

No idea what it fits, but many mills have the dovetail ways going up past the H-spindle, including at least some Cincinnatti.

Thanks guys! A vertical conversion head is what I figured it was as well which is why I'd really hate to scrap it. I know if I only had a horizontal mill in my shop, and a vertical conversion head came up for grabs...I'd want it.

Purely guesstimating the weight, I'd put it some where in the 125-150 pound range given the hassle it gave me moving it around by myself. That's right on the edge of standard ground shipping and LTL .

 

[thermite]

It does appear to be a vertical head that would fit on the knee ways on column front to engage with a gear on the H-spindle (some are direct drive).

No idea what it fits, but many mills have the dovetail ways going up past the H-spindle, including at least some Cincinnatti.

There's actually a tad greater flexibility in fitting these goods to a horizontal mill whose ways do NOT extend up clear to the spindle.

Case in point, my ex-Booth Machine "Quartet" combo mill wherein BOTH a K&T all-angle head and a K&T slotter had been fitted.

As with the head shown here, the attachment is easier than first appears, better yet, neither alignment nor any form of 'tram' are all that critical.

A thick plate was fabbed, central hole pierced for generous clearance around the spindle
Counterbored bolts attach this flat to the face of the casting around the spindle.

The edges are dovetailed to fit the head.

In-use, the milling head is slid up or down until the end clearance of the driven and driving gear (on a 40-taper tail, in-spindle bore) are "OK", then tightened. It would not actually matter if slightly off the vertical CL of the spindle. The gears don't much care.

The slotting head is driven by a slotted 40-taper adaptor and a crankpin. Once again a modest off-centreline error is of no consequence. One adjusts, may sacrifice a few thou off max stroke. BFD.

UNLIKE the factory OEM fixed mount host for these goods, one is not limited to exactly the correct driving gear. Any gear with a mating pitch and suitable face-width will do. One simply adjusts for engagement & end clearance.

All-in-all, a simple, and rather straightforward adaptation exercise.

Not to put too-damned-fine a point on it, but.. the "host" doesn't even have to be a mill. Head of this sort, power source, it could do duty as a cold saw or a head on a planer.

 

[JohnnyBouncewell]

After looking at some specs again, I reckon its a Cat40 taper, not NT. Again, if anybody needs this lemmie know or its off to the scrap bin in the sky. It's just taking up room in the shop and I've kicked it a few times...it always wins over my foot.

Its really on the edge for shipping weight, if needed I can figure out a way to get an approximate weight with a bathroom scale.

 

[thermite]

After looking at some specs again, I reckon its a Cat40 taper, not NT. Again, if anybody needs this lemmie know or its off to the scrap bin in the sky. It's just taking up room in the shop and I've kicked it a few times...it always wins over my foot.

Its really on the edge for shipping weight, if needed I can figure out a way to get an approximate weight with a bathroom scale.

NMTB, CAT, BT, Ericsson are all the same taper. Arse-end threads for drawbar may differ. Flange may differ. It isn't rocket science to adapt between and among the whole tribe for manuals with manual tool-changing.

Keep in mind that the drawbars are SHORT for heads of this clan. Not hard to have more than one - US & Metric. Not hard to set up for two driving lugs or just one, nor to shape a lug to fit the flange notch on any of the several "40-taper" tooling holders. IIRC, I have neither BT nor Ericsson, but am set up for use of NMTB or CAT at will.

This head "should" be a useful item and not hard to adapt for anyone with a 40-taper horizontal spindle with 5 HP or better. "Add-on" or not, it can do far more serious metal removal than a BirdPort (style) add-on head dare attempt - even on its best "native" mount.

 

[140mower]

..... HMMM, mine is a 40 taper. Don't bin it yet, we might need to talk..... I know nothing about shipping such items, never mind getting it across the boarder, but if not too cost prohibitive.....

 

[johnoder]

After looking at some specs again, I reckon its a Cat40 taper, not NT

Come now. It was made long before anyone associated CAT with machine tools. National Machine Tool Builders Association was founded in 1911 and the spindle taper series (10,20,30,40,50 and eventually 60) dates from about 1930 - and the flanged and face keyed spindle nose was patented in 1913 by Kearney Trecker

Thumbnail is snippet from 1917 K&T - thanks to Greg Menke for hosting this for me

 

[ramsay1]

Straight spur gear drive gears.. The only ones I have seen have helical drive gears... The spindle does appear to be quick release probably 40std...This one is probably before the 1h 2hl series.. Ramsay 1

 

[thermite]

National Machine Tool Builders Association was founded in 1911 and the spindle taper series (10,20,30,40,50 and eventually 60) dates from about 1930..

Around 1926 or 1927 IIRC. Which mattered, as far as improving the chances of take-up AKA "design win" vs, for example, the entrenched B&S tapers.

The industry was finally digging out from under the War One "overhang" of surplussed machine-tools, and had a few growth years yet before the Crash of '29 slowed-down, or even SHUT down so many builders or their customer base.

 

[johnoder]

Sounds reasonable. I had the '26 Cincinnati catalog linked for awhile and I posted on this forum. No mention in there - even the itsy bitsy 1M had the 50 size spindle flange with whopping 14 B&S taper.

But maybe they were hopeful of coming improvements

Around 1926 or 1927 IIRC. Which mattered, as far as improving the chances of take-up AKA "design win" vs, for example, the entrenched B&S tapers.

The industry was finally digging out from under the War One "overhang" of surplussed machine-tools, and had a few growth years yet before the Crash of '29 slowed-down, or even SHUT down so many builders or their customer base.

 

[thermite]

Sounds reasonable. I had the '26 Cincinnati catalog linked for awhile and I posted on this forum. No mention in there - even the itsy bitsy 1M had the 50 size spindle flange with whopping 14 B&S taper.

But maybe they were hopeful of coming improvements

Aye and key-locked MT soldiered-on in manual hor-bores until end of their days. With the key, it DID lock, but "on command", so was less likely to stick in the bore than B&S.

NMTB would have been a hard sell in lean times. Customers with major investments in tooling wanting incremental commonality, workforce familiarity, etc.

War Two had to have been the game-changer for NMTB.

 

[JohnnyBouncewell]

Come now. It was made long before anyone associated CAT with machine tools. National Machine Tool Builders Association was founded in 1911 and the spindle taper series (10,20,30,40,50 and eventually 60) dates from about 1930 - and the flanged and face keyed spindle nose was patented in 1913 by Kearney Trecker

Thumbnail is snippet from 1917 K&T - thanks to Greg Menke for hosting this for me

Yeaaaa. Good point. I don't have any 40 taper tools in my shop so my knowledge of them is gained through second hand experience. Also, interesting chat about NMTB and its adoption. Can we thank the axis for its popularity?

 

[thermite]

Can we thank the axis for its popularity?

Not of a mind to "thank" that lot for anything. Per history (and my own family), the "Great" (who said so?) Depression had been a "double bottom" one. Some firms that survived the first crash went under in the second phase.

The US (and other) economies were getting back on their feet the last few years just before the war. Slowly, but steadily enough Dad traded his '36 Dodge for a new 1941 Oldsmobile with his first automatic transmission.

The war put pressure on industry to ramp up machine tool and tooling production very dramatically - also to standardize. That just had to have boosted NMTB taper adoption.

 

[JohnnyBouncewell]

Not of a mind to "thank" that lot for anything. Per history (and my own family), the "Great" (who said so?) Depression had been a "double bottom" one. Some firms that survived the first crash went under in the second phase.

The US (and other) economies were getting back on their feet the last few years just before the war. Slowly, but steadily enough Dad traded his '36 Dodge for a new 1941 Oldsmobile with his first automatic transmission.

The war put pressure on industry to ramp up machine tool and tooling production very dramatically - also to standardize. That just had to have boosted NMTB taper adoption.

Ah, my comment was intended to be quite tongue and cheek. Just wanted to point out I that I hadn't considered WW2 as being a catalyst for NMTB adoption. I always thought of R8 being the main tooling beneficiary of the war, of course due to the ubiquity of Bridgeports produced during and shortly after the war. And of course the considerable force trained on them during the materiel build up.

 

[ramsay1]

"Patent 1794361 (filed 25 March 1927) describes milling machine spindle and tool shapes using a steep taper.[8] The patent was assigned to Kearney & Trecker Corporation, Brown & Sharpe, and Cincinnati Milling Machine Company. The patent wanted a taper that would freely release the tool and found that a taper of 3.5 in 12 had that property.[9] The patent also used the keys and slots and a tail on the tool shank to prevent the tool shank from falling out of a horizontal mill's spindle while the operator connected the drawbar." Ramsay 1

 

[Jim Christie]

There are a few pages and a chart a chart here showing the dimensions of the of some of the standard Milling Machine tapers .
A treatise on milling and milling machines. - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library | HathiTrust Digital Library
Book Link .
A treatise on milling and milling machines. 1951 Edition
Catalog Record: A treatise on milling and milling machines | Hathi Trust Digital Library

Knowing if the fasteners and other parts are metric or inch dimensions , U.N.C , Whitworth , or metric threads and if the drive gear has a diametral or module pitch might help give a clue if the machine was U.S., British or European or Asian made.
Some Tos machines had this style of head but have bolts on both sides to clamp to the ways and a square cover plate on the front of the head.
I tried a search for Tos Universal Milling Machine but the link to the example I picked doesn't seem to want to post .
Tos horizontal milling machine - Google Search
I also tried a similar search for other Brands of machine but so far no luck.
Some how this one looks European to me but that's just a guess .
Regards,
Jim