Help Identifying Components in Monarch 10EE Control Panel

[Hobby Racer]

I just acquired a 1942 MG Round Dial 10EE. The previous owner said the DC drive "needed some work", i.e. it does not run. Before I tear into it I need some help identifying some of the components in the control panel so I know what they are called and their function. Then I can compare it to the wiring diagram and begin tracing down everything. I have marked the items of interest in the attached picture.

As you can see the main contactors were removed and more modern magnetic contactors were installed at some point.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[thermite]

I just acquired a 1942 MG Round Dial 10EE. The previous owner said the DC drive "needed some work", i.e. it does not run. Before I tear into it I need some help identifying some of the components in the control panel so I know what they are called and their function. Then I can compare it to the wiring diagram and begin tracing down everything. I have marked the items of interest in the attached picture.

As you can see the main contactors were removed and more modern magnetic contactors were installed at some point.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 338686

"More modern" but...

There is no longer a mechanical interlock to prevent both FWD and REV being active at the same time should there arise a situation where there is either of a stuck unit or a fail in their control circuit.

The photo isn't good enough on "zoom" to ID the contactor make and model so we could look-up their characteristics, either.

They may or may not even have adequate *DC* ratings. I don't have a good feeling they do have at their small size.

A 10EE's motor when spinning the drivetrain, a(ny) substantial chuck, any heavy work, and at the gallop needs right stout contactors and with Arc chutes & blowout coils .... to manage the inductive spikes not just "for a lttle while", but for loooooong and maintenance-free years.

Generally, there is more than one way to derive the function needed, "all original" is not a hard-edged absolute, but still...

.."not enough information" just yet to justify starting the detective work to see what was done.

I don't doubt we can "find a way" to get it running, but it will need more documenting and better close-up fotos at the very least.

Are you comfortable with generating your OWN "as found" schematic that reflects it as it is NOW?

Not hard. Just TEDIOUS!

 

[Clive603]

+1 for what Thermite says on the contactors. They need to go pronto.

Forward - reverse pairs with mechanical interlocks built in and all the pesky changeover wiring pre installed can be found fairly easily. I recently got a set for a single phase 2 hp installation that was almost same price as a naked pair from an equivalent quality supplier. Name brand but economy range as that installation is light duty. If it sees 1,000 cycles in my lifetime I shall be surprised.

DC needs a much bigger contactor than AC for same power.

Trace the schematic or rip out and start over. Assuming that a previous worker has done what you would have done or at least the right thing tends to surprises of the sparky and magic smoke kind. Its amazing what folk can come up with when fixing as they go. Then you have the bodgers!

These days I tend to the rip-out or start over with clean paper and modern parts school of thought. Life is getting too short to play hunt the wire, guess the colour.

Clive

 

[Hobby Racer]

Here are some close ups of the contactors.



If they are under sized for the task, what should I be looking for as replacements?

As for the components numbered in the original post, do you need close ups of each of them as well? They appear to be original so I thought they could be easily identified by their shape and position on the control board.

 

[Hobby Racer]

... Are you comfortable with generating your OWN "as found" schematic that reflects it as it is NOW?

Not hard. Just TEDIOUS!

Yes, but I would like to know what each component in there now is before starting that journey.

... These days I tend to the rip-out or start over with clean paper and modern parts school of thought. Life is getting too short to play hunt the wire, guess the colour.

I may go down that road if too many of the original components are not serviceable. I assume there are modern equivalents available for all the control panel components, right? I know the speed control rheostats are hard to find, and pricey if you do find them. Mine seem to be in good shape, just need a serious cleaning. I'm going to test those out today.

 

[thermite]

Here are some close ups of the contactors.

View attachment 338713 View attachment 338714

If they are under sized for the task, what should I be looking for as replacements?

At somewhere around 20-25% of what they need to be for decent longevity?

"Undersized" or a "surprise party" ... depending on your wont for gambling?

As for the components numbered in the original post, do you need close ups of each of them as well? They appear to be original so I thought they could be easily identified by their shape and position on the control board.

No fear.

That wont be hard. They can be "identified" if found loose in a landfill.. if you know the goods of their era and/or look up their markings. Especially if you have the Monarch drawings.. and PM community to help..

But "patience" please. Instant gratification dies here. Lethal DC Voltages demand caution and respect.

So before you even go there... let's get a better evaluation as to how healthy the REST of the DC system is ... or is not.

Complete DC panels still functional and/or easier to repair can be found now and then. Folk who do either of Solid-State DC drive or VFD conversion no longer need their ones.

Motors can be evaluated "raw". OEM DC motors are out there if you need to replace it. It is one of the more complex ones to rewind.

Same again Motor Generators & exciters. Not cheap to rewind. Can be found.
Is yours "inline"? Or "Piggyback". Both might have been shipping, 1941?

The "Motor Switch" can be found or rebuilt, too. Those have some interlocking safety features, but not so complex a person cannot duplicate them from a cold start. IF need be. Mostly we fix 'em up.

Mag starter for the MG's AC input drive motor can be repaired. OR replaced. Not all that hard to sub one, either.

Pulling and terminating new wire is tedious but there isn't an ounce of Black Magic involved.

Wise to get "the big picture" in view first.

And.. are your spindle bearings in decent condition?

Prolly easier to shoe a dead horse than a live one.
He ain't as likely to kick you.

But it wouldn't be wise.

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

It looks like you have an AC relay. Can be used for DC if highly over rated.
Overloading a relay with DC results in a tendency to weld shut. In the trade
this is known as "bad". ;-)

 

[thermite]

It looks like you have an AC relay. Can be used for DC if highly over rated.
Overloading a relay with DC results in a tendency to weld shut. In the trade
this is known as "bad". ;-)

'Nuther minor nit is that DC contactors often want to have polarity respected.
Material off one contact gets transferred to the other over time.

One wires the loads other-way-round to preserve that for FWD & REV sets.

This panel can be re-engineered to use present-day common goods. I'd use GigaVac hermetically sealed DC contactors meself.

It would be better to not HAVE to do, though.

OEM panels were not exactly what you'd call "broken" ... given how long most have lasted... even if off the back of a "BFBI" approach.

Brute Force. Bloody Ignorance.

And far, far more Brute Force than ignorance, to be sure!



ISTR that panels were standardized.. for DC elevators and hoists. Where the market volume was in their era.

And the one Monarch selected was rated for around 12 or 15 HP?
But used for 3 HP and 5 HP load-motors.

No dam' wonder they have lasted so long, is it?

Tough act to follow!

As with sex ... or eating a fresh, ripe, Mango..

"Messy! But WORTH IT!!"

 

[Mark Rand]

Fit snubber networks across the contacts to get around the arcing and derating issues.

 

[thermite]

Fit snubber networks across the contacts to get around the arcing and derating issues.

Can we also interest you in the purchase of a share in a vintage Iron bridge?
Bouch design as it ... were... for a little while...



If it was that easy, Lucas, Prince of Darkness, wudda done it.

Or maybe they DID?

 

[Hobby Racer]

... "Undersized" or a "surprise party" ... depending on your wont for gambling?

Ok, those gotta go.

But "patience" please. Instant gratification dies here. Lethal DC Voltages demand caution and respect.

So before you even go there... let's get a better evaluation as to how healthy the REST of the DC system is ... or is not.

Not in a rush. This is my winter project. Last project was restoring/rebuilding my 1963 J Head Bridgeport. That came out fantastic.

Is yours "inline"? Or "Piggyback". Both might have been shipping, 1941?

Mine is of the Piggyback variety.

And.. are your spindle bearings in decent condition?

Mechanically, the lathe seems in very good shape. The bearings turn smooth with no discernible slop. Ways and all sliding surfaces are in good shape.

Needs a serious cleaning and paint job.

All three motors are getting new bearings, brushes and belts (so long as they test out first).

With everything out and easy to get out I can get started!

 

[rakort]

It looks like you have an AC relay. Can be used for DC if highly over rated.
Overloading a relay with DC results in a tendency to weld shut. In the trade
this is known as "bad". ;-)

LOL yes indeed "bad"

 

[rimcanyon]

Suggestion only, ignore if you like banging your head against the wall: find a good used DC control panel from another 10EE. They aren't hard to find, anyone who did a 3-phase VFD conversion probably has one. I have a spare if you can't find one from the usual sources, such as Damien on ebay. It also doesn't matter if it is from a MG machine or a WIAD, all the components are the same, except a few resistors. WIAD and MG controllers are wired differently, but its only an hour's work to convert.

 

[thermite]

Suggestion only, ignore if you like banging your head against the wall: find a good used DC control panel from another 10EE. They aren't hard to find, anyone who did a 3-phase VFD conversion probably has one. I have a spare if you can't find one from the usual sources, such as Damien on ebay. It also doesn't matter if it is from a MG machine or a WIAD, all the components are the same, except a few resistors. WIAD and MG controllers are wired differently, but its only an hour's work to convert.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Is sound advice... Very!

Or even a "bad" used DC Panel. One that needs minor repairs of unaltered OEM parts but ... has NOT been "cobbled" with mystery parts that never belonged there, wired whom even knows HOW.

FAR easier to repair when it matches the drawings. Faster, too.

 

[Hobby Racer]

Suggestion only, ignore if you like banging your head against the wall: find a good used DC control panel from another 10EE. They aren't hard to find, anyone who did a 3-phase VFD conversion probably has one. I have a spare if you can't find one from the usual sources, such as Damien on ebay. It also doesn't matter if it is from a MG machine or a WIAD, all the components are the same, except a few resistors. WIAD and MG controllers are wired differently, but its only an hour's work to convert.

I am slowly coming to that conclusion . I have been looking for properly rated DC contactors and they are hard to find, and when you do they are $$$$. Does "Damien on ebay" refer to a seller name or a manufacturer I should be looking for on ebay?

Lastly, should I post a WTB thread in this forum or the more general Commerce section?

 

[thermite]

I am slowly coming to that conclusion . I have been looking for properly rated DC contactors and they are hard to find, and when you do they are $$$$. Does "Damien on ebay" refer to a seller name or a manufacturer I should be looking for on ebay?

Lastly, should I post a WTB thread in this forum or the more general Commerce section?

WTB get wider attention.

Mention and link it HERE as well.

 

[Hobby Racer]

Need a DC control panel!

I'm looking for a functional DC control panel. If anyone has one from a drive conversion or a spare they want to part with, please contact me.

I have posted a want to buy thread in the commerce section with contact information.

WTB: DC Control panel for Monarch 10EE

Thanks!

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

There are DC solid state relays available at these power levels.
However they will take a little some extra circuitry to use.
They generally take a DC control signal up to 32 volts. I few diodes,
a capacitor, and a resistor should be all that is needed.

 

[thermite]

There are DC solid state relays available at these power levels.
However they will take a little some extra circuitry to use.
They generally take a DC control signal up to 32 volts. I few diodes,
a capacitor, and a resistor should be all that is needed.

I've been using - and "designing-in" - Crydom's version, AC and DC, since the dawn of the 1970's am never short of a few in the Hell box to do R&D with.

But... I don't use them for a 10EE.

One of us might know something the other does not but John Shackelton's "SSD" lads DID know?

Have a look at the schematic logic diagram for a Eurotherm/Parker 514C-16 or -32 SSD Four-Quadrant DC drive...

More than "a few...." "little somewhat extra.." needful things to keep it all sweet, so as to live long and prosper. AFAIK, John did not own stock in op-amp makers, and they are not on-PCB as "ballast", either.



Half-measures aren't as happy.

A "1Q" 512 (nn) SSD drive still needs the whole dam' "DC Panel" AND the braking resistors for example.

A TWO-quadrant DC drive, such as "Sprint" / Bardac still needs the braking resistors, but nowt else.

Four-Quadrant DC drives do not need even one millimeter of original wire and ZERO other OEM components. Nought but the motor - by contrast.

"Getting there" with Crydom's is a non-trivial exercise, and hybrid-messy to boot.

Half measures lead to half-vast performance, reliability issues high on the lest of gotcha's as yah fall into the cracks in between.

Keep it simple:

Either.. Brute Force contactors, simple elegant biased relays for acceleration and braking. Not much to break. Put it to rights? It can last for a human generation. Or longer.

ELSE: Go whole-hog with a competent, commercial, DC Drive already many decades proven in service to ALSO "protect itself, regardless". Not just 'seemed OK" on one guy's "breadboard" for a little while.

OP already HAS that sort of half-vast kludge.

Whatever ELSE it did, it did not function "as-built" for full eighty years, did it?

QE--Mike-Foxtrot-Dee

 

[rimcanyon]

I am slowly coming to that conclusion . I have been looking for properly rated DC contactors and they are hard to find, and when you do they are $$$$. Does "Damien on ebay" refer to a seller name or a manufacturer I should be looking for on ebay?

Lastly, should I post a WTB thread in this forum or the more general Commerce section?

If you search for 10EE parts on ebay, many of the listings are from seller damienpdr. Damien has a lot of parts not listed, so email him.