Help identifying surface grinder

[Sumo91]

Got the grinder today. The one guy who was gonna help was out of town working, so needless to say it was a 5.5hr ordeal getting it loaded. But we got it! Got home too late to get it unloaded, so that'll happen tomorrow, thankfully my neighbor has a big tractor to help me.

I'll take some pictures when I get it cleaned up, but it looks as though someone has rebuilt this machine before, and did quite a good job (from what I can tell) lots of bondo to bring everything to a smooth finish, some of it is chipped and broken off, so ill probably fix it and then put a fresh coat of machinery grey rattle can paint on it to make it look nice.

The ball ways look perfect, and the V ways on the saddle are scraped. The V ways on the machine seem to have some kind or turcite/molgice (may have botched the spelling) material on them that looks professionally done, with all oil ports and oil channels added. I'll be getting it cleaned up and oiled soon. Do I need grease or oil for the ball ways? I have a really great NGLI 1.5 grease I'd like to use for it. Everything else is oiled by a manual oil pump in the rear of the machine.

Every picture I try to add says it's too large. I need to crop then or something

 

[JohnEvans]

OIL !!

 

[michiganbuck]

Some machines have dry balls and some with oiled, guess you need to check it out. I haven't seen a grinder with grease on balls. Grease and oil can tend to collect grits and so are only for machines that are designed for lub on balls.
Post a few photos if you can.

*Don't be quick to grind the chuck until you have the right wheel and know what you are doing.
Your description sounds like it has balls on the long travel and some kind or turcite/molgice on the cross travel?

If suitable for your grinder, I like to add a strip of masking tape stuck at the parting line at the long travel and just overlapping the saddle..Yes after you have the balls clean and ready to close up. a wipe of oil on the cross saddle keeps it from sticking there.
So to keep the grits out.

Hand spin the spindle a number of times if it has been setting for a time, then jog start it a couple of times.

 

[Sumo91]

I removed both tables before moving the machine, the ball ways had old grease on them, and the V ways have oil ports that are oiled from a hand pump reservoir on the back of the machine, I'm gonna trace down all the lines, but it looks like there are quite a few, one line going to to every moving part and lead screw, I have tons of gear oil on hand, so ill fill it with that to get the lines cleaned out and purged, then get some vacuoline 1409 to run in it. The machine was only sitting a couple months. The PO bought a newer and nicer one.

I should have power to my shop soon to get it fired up and going. I'm gonna be cleaning all sliding surfaces and regreasing the bearings for the handles until then. I already have the V ways cleaned up nicely and coated in fluid film to prevent rust.

I'm gonna take off some panels on the sides and see if I can find any identifying marks on this machine tomorrow.

I'll post some pictures, any idea on the size limit to attach them? All the ones I try to post says the file is too large

 

[michiganbuck]

I have never tried this site so no clue how it works.
"Free Online Photo Compressor (opens new window)"
May work for photos too large?

 

[Sumo91]

Almost have the grinder back together. Just gotta put the top table back on. Everything sliding surface is cleaned, all bearings cleaned and repacked with fresh grease (except for the head raising/lowering mechanism) oil pump reservoir cleaned as well as all oil lines cleaned and purged with fresh waylube 68.

In the bottom of the base is a reservoir to hold the excess oil that drips down. I put a couple qts of mineral spirits in it and have been breaking up the hardened oil and debris.

Still no identifying marks anywhere on the machine. All writing in the power bow is in Chinese/Japanese or something.

 

[michiganbuck]

You might run a new condition fine grit flat hone on the ways, just to witness the flatness and remove any bugs, might consider oil flaking the flat ways (search that on PM, could test vertice feed nut by setting a piece of wood on the chuck and down feed to feel the amount of free play.
looks like you are doing a fine job cleaning her up. Spray painting once assembled is a NoNo.

 

[Sumo91]

You might run a new condition fine grit flat hone on the ways, just to witness the flatness and remove any bugs, might consider oil flaking the flat ways (search that on PM, could test vertice feed nut by setting a piece of wood on the chuck and down feed to feel the amount of free play.
looks like you are doing a fine job cleaning her up. Spray painting once assembled is a NoNo.

Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna see how it grinds before I do any work to it. I don't need anything to be super precise, it's just for the odd ball job here and there for my own projects.

Someone wrote on the saddle that it takes .718in bearing balls for the ball ways, 36 of them. I seem to only have 31, so I guess it didn't come with all of them (13 in the front towards the handle, 18 in the rear towards the grinding disc). I've done a Google search but couldn't come up with anything. I wouldn't mind getting new balls and making some new retainers for it.

 

[michiganbuck]

*Ball retainers are common so the balls are separated and don't rub each other.
Simple homemade brass or plastic is fine, about +.030 holes (or what), and the spacing just scale measure is Ok.
Some people have put larger balls in, and some smaller to get on a new area of the ball way racks, a little tricky because the travel gear may rub or be loose / or you may gain too much clearance to castings fit.
Carefully check the plastic ways for any tags or bumps/burrs around the holes and edges.

It looks like a decent design, Grinders are a simple machine, possible the name information was stuck on and fell off.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Sorry I'm no help with the identification, other than something about the gold metalic paint and yellow primer says 90's MSC to me. They of course rebadge stuff from Taiwan/China (and sometimes even sell stuff without any badge), but you might be able to find a manual or even parts through them.

 

[Sumo91]

So looking up bearings balls that are .718in turned up nothing, but .7187in is equal to 23/32in. My calipers only read to 0.000, so they're probably .7187, I found these https://www.mcmaster.com/bearing-balls/diameter~23-32/tolerance-rating~standard/

Do yall think these will be sufficient?

 

[michiganbuck]

Sorry I'm no help with the identification, other than something about the gold metalic paint and yellow primer says 90's MSC to me. They of course rebadge stuff from Taiwan/China (and sometimes even sell stuff without any badge), but you might be able to find a manual or even parts through them.

And the long travel crank coming out at that angle..I think you nailed it.

So looking up bearings balls that are .718in turned up nothing, but .7187in is equal to 23/32in. My calipers only read to 0.000, so they're probably .7187, I found these https://www.mcmaster.com/bearing-balls/diameter~23-32/tolerance-rating~standard/

Do yall think these will be sufficient?

Yes, at $15 for 25 pkg wow that is a deal....all kinds of prices out there, eBay has some low prices or 23/32 balls..
Having an indicator you can inspect what you have. A missing ball or two won't make much difference. You don't want to mix new with old IMHO.
You might space the balls a tad more with the retainers you make, balls may have been left out to avoid the ride up at the end of long travel, but that doesn't work as the balls can still go there.

 

[Sumo91]

And the long travel crank coming out at that angle..I think you nailed it.

Yes, at $15 each..all kinds of prices out there, eBay has some low prices or 23/32 balls..
Having an indicator you can inspect what you have. A missing ball or two won't make much difference. You don't want to mix new with old IMHO.
You might space the balls a tad more with the retainers you make, balls may have been left out to avoid the ride up at the end of long travel, but that doesn't work as the balls can still go there.

Thanks for the input. I was gonna replace all of them at the same time, so 30 bucks isn't a bad deal. I have an account at mcmaster carr so I figured I just got them from there. I've had good experiences with them, and know exactly what I'm getting.

I'll look into the MSC grinders. The motor is dated 1993 I believe. I'll have to double check it. I'm just happy this machine doesn't need much more than a cleaning and new ball way bearings. My 1943 hendey lathe is gonna be a huge project. Gotta see how it cuts before I so to much to it, as the ways are worn pretty badly. The good news is that the guy I got this grinder from has 2 1940s monarchs he might part with for a decent price. Just gotta get the hendey going first.

 

[john.k]

If you buy loose balls ,that arent SKF,be sure to check every one for size to tenth...........a while back I saw a horrible mess made by replacing balls in a steering box with loose packet balls from a reputable bearing supplier.......the size difference was of the order of 002.,the box locked up ...with fatal results.

 

[Sumo91]

If you buy loose balls ,that arent SKF,be sure to check every one for size to tenth...........a while back I saw a horrible mess made by replacing balls in a steering box with loose packet balls from a reputable bearing supplier.......the size difference was of the order of 002.,the box locked up ...with fatal results.

This is really good advice. I'll be sure to measure each one.

 

[Sumo91]

So I was looking up ball retainers for the ball ways, and I saw a picture of a surface grinder that looks 99% identical to mine. It looks like a company called Knuth still makes this model (or made it recently) from my research the company seems to be somewhat reputable. Even the control panel is identical, it's the only one I've seen like mine. I thought it was interesting enough to share.

Manual Surface Grinder FSM 480 | Contact KNUTH

Compact Workshop-Surface Grinder Details spindle resists high loads; mounted in pre-loaded angular deep-groove ball bearings ensures low-vibration operation, high accuracy, increased...

www.industry-plaza.com

 

[michiganbuck]

So I was looking up ball retainers for the ball ways, and I saw a picture of a surface grinder that looks 99% identical to mine. It looks like a company called Knuth still makes this model (or made it recently) from my research the company seems to be somewhat reputable. Even the control panel is identical, it's the only one I've seen like mine. I thought it was interesting enough to share.

Manual Surface Grinder FSM 480 | Contact KNUTH

Compact Workshop-Surface Grinder Details spindle resists high loads; mounted in pre-loaded angular deep-groove ball bearings ensures low-vibration operation, high accuracy, increased...

www.industry-plaza.com

Good find, likely that ball wat retainer would go Ok, or you could make your own.
The grinder photo looks like 20 and 25 balls. What price for the retainers?
looks like a good company/grinder.

Our History

www.knuth.com

 

[Sumo91]

Good find, likely that ball wat retainer would go Ok, or you could make your own.
The grinder photo looks like 20 and 25 balls. What price for the retainers?
looks like a good company/grinder.

Our History

www.knuth.com

I actually couldn't find any retainers, just happened to see the photo of the grinder and went down another rabbit hole. I'm not sure where to source the retainers, maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing? I'll probably end up making my own.

I'll get a closer look at my table and see if it will hold that many balls. I have 50 of them coming in Wednesday, so more than enough if I need extras. Like you I noticed their ball ways had more balls than the 36 written on my machine