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Help to ID a metal alloy by XRF reported composition - WHAT THE?

Porschefix

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Location
Bluff Dale
I drove out to my neighborhood scrapyard to have several pieces of mystery metal identified today. I have used these guys before to help figure out some unknowns and in exchange for a couple of six-packs of beer they have been extraordinarily kind and helpful. I have used some known materials and have always been surprised at the accuracy of types and percentages reported by their handheld XRF analyzer such as: Tellurium copper, Tungsten copper, all grades of titanium, tantalum, different grades of toolsteels and stainless steels. I have come to rely on those reported results. Today however, I had a chunk of metal analyzed three times (all were the same) and still do not believe the results. Does anyone know what this metal alloy might be or is there just some glitchy problem with the analyzer identifying it?

Ti 31.87% + Cr 1.77%+ Mn 0.61%+ Fe 63.61%+Mo 2.14% = 100%

I have scoured the internet and cannot find or even imagine a possible alloy containing these percentages of elemental metals. Help anyone?
image.jpg
 
If the report is correct the part should be noticeably lighter than a piece of steel. Maybe not to a human hand, but to a scale. 1/3 composition of something just more than 1/2 the density of steel should result in a part only 5/6 the weight of a similar piece of steel.

Was this on a fresh ground surface?
 
Did it have a coating? XRD only measures the surface, so if it's got a coating, that would explain it.

Possible it's a bad mix of steel? Did you try at multiple places on the piece?

I've gotten pretty strange results, but the only time I've seen stuff like that was when shooting coated parts.
 
If the report is correct the part should be noticeably lighter than a piece of steel. Maybe not to a human hand, but to a scale. 1/3 composition of something just more than 1/2 the density of steel should result in a part only 5/6 the weight of a similar piece of steel.

I'm not sure if this is true (but I'm certainly not sure.... anybody here a materials scientist? maybe gbent is....). The way I understood it, alloys don't simply mix in at a 1:1 ratio of volume. Ie, sometimes the alloying elements "dissolve" into other alloying elements, and thus density calculation is not a matter of just doing the simple addition.

As an example, if you take a glass of water and add salt, even though you are adding material to the water (and the weight of the water will increase on a 1:1 ratio with the amount of salt you put in), the volume will not increase until the water is saturated. I'm wondering if this is the same for alloyed metals. I'd say I may be wrong, but I really have no clue if I'm right.....

[edit] Ok, so I just checked wiki.... what I'm talking about is called an "interstitial" alloy (vs what gbent describes, which would be a "substitutional" alloy). Still need a metallurgist to tell us which is which.
 
Thermite, it is a cutoff from a larger piece, rough sawn, looks like a coarse saw blade. it is about 7 inches long by 2 inches on the finished sides, sawed about 1/2 inch thick.

Scojen- Will do a hardness test today, I'll also surface grind and video spark. I had done a spark test and it looked like soft tool steel maybe D2 or S7 to me but I never was too good at reading a spark test, that's why I depend on the XRF.

Mark Rand- I really think there is a problem with the test results, I don't think there is any material made with that much titanium content in it.

gbent- I agree with the weight, I compared it to a similar piece of tool steel. similar I say, the piece in question is cut off at a slight angle so I can can only approximate the dimensions, but I sure don't think there is 5/6 difference in the weight. I'll surface grind a bit of it today and have the dang thing re-tested when I can. That's an obviously good ideer!

snowman- No the thing is not obviously coated, it does appear to have a surface on it, like a dark oxidation but not a coating, like I said the two sides are sawn surfaces. I have had things tested before with oxidation of different types and the XRF was still accurate. I guess I'll be more careful in the future. It was tested in three different locations, one on an opposite side. I just cant imagine why the results were so uniform.

Royldean- Your statement is as I understand it also, that's why I posted, weird.

Thanks for all the replys, I'll post again when I have answers. Where else would I have been able to ask a question like this and get such good suggestions and responses? GO PM!
 
Mystery Metal.jpg
Photo shows- rough sawn original surface, sawed area and broken tang (brittle), Milled area, chip consistency, scale for reference. Hardness tester dents.

Thermite, it is a cutoff from a larger piece, rough sawn, looks like a coarse saw blade. it is about 7 inches long by 2 inches on the finished sides, sawed about 1/2 inch thick.
Sorry my mistake, it is only about .312" thick, definitely coarse sawn

Scojen- Will do a hardness test today, I'll also surface grind and video spark. I had done a spark test and it looked like soft tool steel maybe D2 or S7 to me but I never was too good at reading a spark test, that's why I depend on the XRF.

HARDNESS 47HRC, no video but the surface grind test was weird. I don't know if anyone surface grinds titanium but after trying it years ago, I do NOT. This crap surface grinds like titanium in that it doesn't, I cannot imagine trying to surface grind this shit flat, it rubs the wheel, puts burn marks on the metal, makes a coarse surface and loads down the motor with hardly any resulting ground surface, I tried soft and hard coarse wheels, same results. The resulting spark is orange and BIG, not white like titanium but certainly a large shower of tiny orange sparks..

Mark Rand- I really think there is a problem with the test results, I don't think there is any material made with that much titanium content in it.
I MAY be mistaken! Im NOW thinking this may be some exotic sintered weird ass metal and damned if you might be right!

gbent- I agree with the weight, I compared it to a similar piece of tool steel. similar I say, the piece in question is cut off at a slight angle so I can can only approximate the dimensions, but I sure don't think there is 5/6 difference in the weight. I'll surface grind a bit of it today and have the dang thing re-tested when I can. That's an obviously good ideer!

OKAY I WEIGHED it with comparable dimensioned tool steel. Mystery metal 276g, O1 steel 307g, about the right differential, not too far from 5/6 weight difference! I was surprised, but that's no surprise. READ ABOVE to see results of surface grinding fiasco.

snowman- No the thing is not obviously coated, it does appear to have a surface on it, like a dark oxidation but not a coating, like I said the two sides are sawn surfaces. I have had things tested before with oxidation of different types and the XRF was still accurate. I guess I'll be more careful in the future. It was tested in three different locations, one on an opposite side. I just cant imagine why the results were so uniform.

Royldean- Your statement is as I understand it also, that's why I posted, weird.

THE CRAP IS BRITTLE! I thought well lets machine some of this, it saws nicely, like 416 stainless or so.I sawed a slit about .5" long with the narrow tang about .0625" wide and tried to bend it in the vise just to see how malleable it was and it broke like cast iron, no flex, just snap and broken. I milled it with a carbide endmill and it machines fine, makes chips like cast iron or Elkonite. Makes me think it is sintered.

I don't know what this crap is but at this point it is academic, I'm not going to try to use it for anything but a paperweight. If anyone wants to try to figure it out I'll certainly cooperate with answers to any questions. If you want it I'll put it in the mail, it still comes 6 days a week. I guess the bottom line is, now I think the XRF is correct and my faith is once again restored, well at least for now.
 

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Back when I had my shop in Tucson, there were some brainiac guys next door. Don't know if this is part of it, but one of the things I worked on for them were different materials for "sputtering" in their vacuum chamber. They'd bring over cut pieces like that and have me drill holes and other machining. IIRC, they were working on magnets. They didn't say, always wanted their sketches back, along with the chips and any scrap. I got used to that kind of stuff along with always asking about drilled holes with 4 place size and location callouts.
JR
 
Don't think so:
-it's either a casting from an illegal production facility of Porsche conrod's
-or t's waste from Area 51 that's been dumped elsewhere
 
Interesting problem. I thought it might be a low-res XRF gun, in which case it can miss peaks. But the only Xray peak I know of that's near Ti is barium (Ti is about 4.6 Ev, Ba is about 4.4).
 
Hi ,
Well he has a lump of maybe a few Kg's ?
According to this in the link:
100 g USD 1154.00
Porschefix has got a fortune there...
Regards,
Max
 
Porschefix lives about 15 miles, as a crow flies, from a nuke plant. Where did you say you picked this up?
Haven't seen your name here for a while, hope everything is ok. Seen Wayne lately? I think the building his shop was in is for sale.
i_r_
 








 
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