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Help to navigate machining on a horizontal boring mill

The most important function I am looking at is horizontal boring (brown arrow higlight), diameter ~400 mm and length around 700 mm.
You need an HMC (630mm or 800mm), not an HBM. An HBM is an absolutely massive machine... way bigger than you'd need. Most HBMs sit on custom foundations.

Is this your first foray into CNC machining? If so, this would be an extremely ambitious first project, to put it gently.
 
typcc,
Your project is really quite large, and using quite specialized processes.
This is not a simple turning or milling job.
I would suggest you need to build a relationship with a machine shop that is capable of this type of job. You need to learn a lot more about what type of machining your project requires well before you consider spending money.
These are expensive, complex machines and processes.
Build some personal relationships.
Good luck,
Bob
 
Fair enough.

I was only considering the information you gave us, just the one job for the one casting. If you have enough work to keep an HBM running for 40 hours a week, then that's a different story.

Just my opinion here, but you are in one of those unique positions where it may actually not be unreasonable to consider buying an existing machine shop. Most older job shops will already have lathes, mills, maybe an old Bullard VBM, a Blanchard grinder, small welding department, ect.

If you need the ability to make your products in house, you will need all of the fiddly bits to support that plan. Buying an existing shop can bring you some small jobs to keep the lights on and give you the ability to transfer your oil & gas jobs slowly without running out of capital.

To your question whether or not every cnc can do your operations; Yes, any cnc HBM capable of simultaneous X/Y axis motion can cut your grooves.

View attachment 406540

They are very common machines all over the world. A 5" or 6" HBM would probably be fine for most jobs.


You are not likely to find a cnc control in existence that isn't capable of this. The control that you stated only does bolt circles and such, I'd bet money that it can do much more than you know; even if it is only capable of being programmed with its own conversational software.

The program to cut those grooves could be done on a notepad and typed in by hand. It isn't very much code.
Thanks for your feedback, I am evaluating all these different commercial options.

5" or 6" refers to the spindel shaft diameter?

Your feedback about CNC controls was exactly the kind of soft confirmation I was looking for, thank you!
 
I think y'all are overdramatizing this job?

Yeah, it needs a bigger machine, and the right tooling, but it's only 1 part / pallet. No dealing with forty-leven offsets, and whatnot...

All he has to doo is to bore it, recess it, maybe face it off, index it 90* and take a skim cut on the "top", index another 180* and skim that side (top) too. Then that part gits changed out and then it goes onto Pallet2 which is set up to drill and tap the holes on top.

Note - that my process for boring that part out - middle only was thinking that you had a full diameter bore, but now I realize that you are boring out Teenage Mutant Turtles (on the half shell?) so - that sorta changes most of that routine. That also reduces the required Z stroke as well, and allows you to have more wiggle room there....

IM/HO - Fixturing is by far the biggest concern. How would you hold this part secure?

Yeah, the job isn't the simplest to start with, but - as long as you don't expect it to happen overnight, why not?
My first multi-spindle set-up was one of the most involved I've ever done. (3 threads on a 4 spindle machine)

My recomendation would be to fetch a machine that others know and can help you with - online.
Most anything with a Fanuc control would be #1. There are many Makino 630's out there. Not sure the control (front end) on those, but they are very popular, and thus - there should be someone that can get you past a jackpot situation.

Some Chinese boring mill with XYZ control on it - and you will be without much help from peers.


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I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
An HBM is an absolutely massive machine... way bigger than you'd need. Most HBMs sit on custom foundations.

Not all HBM's are the size of a house. This is a common 4" Devlieg, they made some with even smaller tables too.

The main bore on his part is a 15.75" I.D. bored 27.56" deep. Would that not be more difficult to bore on a machining center vs an HBM?
 

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Some Chinese boring mill with XYZ control on it - and you will be without much help from peers.
Disagree with this. I can't think of any Chinese boring mills, actually, but there's a lot of unusual japan and europe ones with tosnuc controls and weirder, boring mills tend to be small market machines and less common no matter what but my bitch with the statement is, machining is machining.

How you plan to make the part is a hell of a lot more important than what commands you use to drive the table or bar. And g code is fairly standard anyhow.

Any big machine you buy is going to be expensive but it won't be any more difficult to make on an Awea with a fidia control than on a G&L with an 8000 or a fanuc or a Toyoda with a toshiba. Control is pretty meaningless here. Process will be the part that matters.

Unfortunately, he doesn't know anything about either one. Going to be a hard row to hoe.
 
Thanks for your feedback, I am evaluating all these different commercial options.

5" or 6" refers to the spindel shaft diameter?

Your feedback about CNC controls was exactly the kind of soft confirmation I was looking for, thank you!

You're welcome. Yes, that refers to the quill diameter - the round part that the tool mounts in.

This thread is helpful; I'm sure there are many more, I just haven't looked. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/horizonal-boring-mill-z-vs-w-axis.254299/

When I said a 5"- 6" will cover most anything, I ment pretty much any common machine shop work. A 6" HBM is fairly tall and begins into the territory that Orange Vise warned about.

This is a 6" Devlieg

afe0cc0beb2b9f988e0c0682bce4c01b-8109cd7a45a695c3240850bfe80f4bb4.jpg

If most of your work is the size of the part in your original post or smaller; a 4" or 5" would likely be sufficient.

I am partial to Devlieg because they were very precise and universal machines but it is by no means the only brand worth buying. Kuraki is another pretty good name. Their machines are more production based and often include modern features like enclosures, tool changers and such.
 
You need an HMC (630mm or 800mm), not an HBM. An HBM is an absolutely massive machine... way bigger than you'd need. Most HBMs sit on custom foundations.

Is this your first foray into CNC machining? If so, this would be an extremely ambitious first project, to put it gently.
Hm can you make a distinct differentiation between HMC and HBM? I think Ox mentioned that HMC doesn't have a W axis, otherwise they seems to be more or less the same? 630 / 800 is a reference to what?

Yes this is my first CNC adventure. I realize that this is a major undertaking but I am also comfortably naive at the moment. We will see how naive I am when this start to cost money... :-)

typcc,
Your project is really quite large, and using quite specialized processes.
This is not a simple turning or milling job.
I would suggest you need to build a relationship with a machine shop that is capable of this type of job. You need to learn a lot more about what type of machining your project requires well before you consider spending money.
These are expensive, complex machines and processes.
Build some personal relationships.
Good luck,
Bob
Well, I am aware it is a big job but I am also thinking "how difficult can it be"? I have been looking videos on Youtube of abom79, DannyCNC and cncfrezar several hours per day for weeks now. Every night before sleep I get stuck with that :D I have a tremendous respect for their work but I am also getting inspired, motivated and confident that this is something I can figure out - even on a half hearted basis. Please don't forget that I am also not alone in this venture, there are several people around me who have a vast workshop experience. Perhaps not as dedicated CNC operators for the past 40 years, but still skillful in many meaningful ways.

The reason why I am going in this direction is due to my current and past experience with the CNC shops we have been working with for the last 20 years. In my point of view, they are tremendously expensive and as I realize that this is not an easy job, I am still hesitant to have them playing around to learn how to do this on a hourly rate on my account. Please keep in mind that I live in one of the most expensive countries on earth, in the past I have learned that we can do many of our CNC jobs in east Europe for 30% of the price I pay locally.

Here is a mean average of the prices we currently pay to our local shops:
CNC lathe $95/hour
HMC/HBM $130/hour
VMC 5-axis $125/hour
Preparations/setup $80/hour

Compare this to having an employed operator at a fixed monthly salar of ~$4000.

How does this compare with US for example?

I am also curious if any of you could estimate the price/hours that you would take to do this part based on the image I provided earlier today. Please consider the bore length (brown color) to be around 500 mm and the ends with the grooves around 250 mm each. Hence total part length approx. 1000 mm.
15 pcs. bolt holes M20
Bore dia. 400 mm
Groove dia. 420 mm
 
The 500 /630 / 800 etc are in ref to the size square of the pallets that the HMC's have on them.

The travels will be more.

Just search for a machine for sale and you will see the listed travels, but on say my Maxim 630, I think that I have 30+" in Y (up and down on a horizontal) and a solid 40"+ I think in X, but in your case, what you really need as far as a HMC, is to be able to get your part on the pallet, and have it spin freely. This means that there is a theoretical circle that encompasses the pallet, and that circle will be prox where the pallet corners are clipped. Will your part fit within this circle?

The other thing then is - with my part fixtured in a manor to fit in that circle, now - what are my Z stroke and tooling length requirements to work within those limits?

The 630's are a common machine @ prox 35,000#.

An 800 is a whole 'nother class beyond that.

IDK what is available on other mills, but I would want a geared head machine so that you have easy power at slow speeds. Your boring bar would be spinning too fast, and that is a large diameter, so it will need some torque.

So a 7500 RPM or less machine will be better suited than a 12,000 rpm machine.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I am partial to Devlieg because they were very precise and universal machines
Devlieg guys stick together :D That should say something about the machine but ...

For what he's talking about ? HMC with pallets would probably be better. Production, enclosed, generally less skill required to run them. There were some late-model Cincinnati Magnum one meter hmc's around a while ago for under a hundred, they were actually Fives machines with an almost-current control, would probably be ideal.

But since this topic ... it's kind of like "I wanted to go to Hawaii last month but ticket prices are outrageous ! What do I need to start building wide-body jetliners ?"

Realistically, chances this go anywhere are slim to none.

op: in simplest terms, boring mill moves the cutter through the part, machining center moves the part past the cutter.
 








 
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