Help with inserts? Turning hard barrels?

[gwilson]

Matov,I don't know why you are bringing ME into this thread. I did not even post in it. Have you just gone completely nuts?

Maybe it's just senility creeping in?

He apparently DID get the barrel threaded,in case you did not notice.

I don't know why you are being so nasty to a guy you don't even know. When he turns down the amount of metal that he did,and it's STILL HARD,it is safe to say that it is hard all the way through.

 

[michiganbuck]

We had good service with ceramics on hardened connecting rods. NTK was the best there. Higher speed and light cuts working good. Using carbide I would try harder grades C5 or better. Still taking light cuts with high but reasonable speed.Positive top attitude about 5* as not much sense breaking chips close to cutting action and needing better heat absorption.
I had an interesting job offer from NTK years ago to take sales for three east coast states, NY, NJ and one other.. Was not too long after that Iscar came into the market with a lot of products so perhaps good I tuned NTK down..Only the Shadow knows.
Production Tool Supply

 

[goodsteel]

If you don't have anything to offer besides insults, and wont even provide me the courtesy of reading my post and attempting to comprehend it, and taking my word as a craftsman that when I say "its hard" that's exactly what I mean, buzz off.

I read your post. I think you cannot properly cut steel. YOU complain that it is TOO hard for you.

IF you cannot, on your own CUT any metal you are not in my mind, a real machinist

BUT you also join others who call me a drunkard anytime I challenge such as you. Matters not who you ARE the OP Wilson, I am always the "drunkard"!

I admit that I do drink beer at night. I think that a few at least of you sip some liquor at lunch every day.

Does that mean that my remarks on your ineptitude excuses you?

IF I go back to your initial rejection of my remarks You are the ONLY person here who says you are a "Craftsman". I do not know you from Adam. ARE you or do you just SAY you are?Everybody THINKS they are the best there ever was. You SOUND as though you think you are. I do NOT think you are.

But then that must be because I drink beer. That I do means that everytime I say anything, assholes like you think that I must be drunk.

IF I say that you are incompetent, others here will flock to your defence, partly because a good few OF our members are NOT all that GOOD as machinists. Decent MACHINE OPERATORS, but NOT what WE can call Machinists.

Now you goodsteel are NOT a Machinist. You cannot cut a thread on a barrel. I would not employ you to make a rifle for me. I have HAD a few built for me. 6mm 284 for one biggest mistake ever, not any better than 6mm Rem. I were one of you 50 YA, a gunsmith. Licenced and all. Do not you tell me to buzz off. I probably still know more than you ever will after your 6 week course!

George

And tell GWilson and the rest of them pussies to go fuck theselves.

Well actually, I didn't pay much mind to the other posters comment that you had too much to drink, as I figured it provided you a safe exit without losing much face, but seeing your hostile reaction, I've got to say they must have hit pretty close to the mark.
Look, things like this are a flashing red warning sign that you should get yourself some help. There's nothing you can do to me that you haven't already done to yourself ten fold. One of the skills you develop as a gunsmith is the ability to read people by what they say and do, because it's my job to listen to what they mean, not what they say.
I hear a world of guilt in your post sir. Please take my advice when I tell you that you don't need that in your life, you're not as bad a person as you think you are, and you need to seek help. You're not worthless, it's not too late, and there are people who want to help you, and they CAN help you. Furthermore, you NEED HELP, and you need to recognize that sir.
The excuses you give yourself that "a few at least of you sip some liquor at lunch every day" is totally false. A normal person has maybe one drink with dinner possibly two, once or twice a week at most. No one who expects to keep their job drinks in the middle of the day, or at night on a workday. That's a risk a healthy, responsible person would never take. The fact that you do, is further evidence that you need HELP.
Please don't take this the wrong way. Sometimes people use the phrase "you need help" as an insult of sorts, but I do not mean that at all. I am sincerely telling you that you need professional help, and that with it, you can beat this problem you have.

I recently decided to quit dipping tobacco. I have tried several times in the past and failed, but this time I called the 1-800 number and got with a counselor. I didn't do that because I'm week (although truthfully I am in this area) but I did it because this time I was going to quit for good and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.
I thought I was going to be buried with a dip in my mouth, but I've not had a dip in 2 months now. Nothing is impossible if you get help from other people.

 

[paracongo308]

Oh and I looked on google about how hard the nitriding is and looks like mid 50s but not very deep.

Gas Nitriding Surface Hardening Process at Metlab and Metlab Potero of Wyndmoor PA.

Your looking up the wrong process, Melonite and Nitriding are completely different. Melonite is 65+ Rc. I guess I'll repeat my original post again on how to thread the end of a Blaser or any other barrel that has been Melonited, NOT NITRIDED. You have to get under case hardness & also receive the area where the initial thread lead will start. You should expect to remove at least .050 from the diameter to get to machinable metal that high speed steel will cut. The barrel I threaded was setup in a spin grind fixture (Harig) or any one you prefer to use. The setup barrel was placed on a surface grinder, and spun until I could hit the surface with a file. Barrel was then setup in a lathe where thread major diameter was turned, then the threads were cut. Start to finish 1 hour cost $60. No cbn- 5606 inserts, no ceramic, no diamond wheels. Only thing that was required was 2 machine tools and a little common sense.

 

[goodsteel]

Your looking up the wrong process, Melonite and Nitriding are completely different. Melonite is 65+ Rc. I guess I'll repeat my original post again on how to thread the end of a Blaser or any other barrel that has been Melonited, NOT NITRIDED. You have to get under case hardness & also receive the area where the initial thread lead will start. You should expect to remove at least .050 from the diameter to get to machinable metal that high speed steel will cut. The barrel I threaded was setup in a spin grind fixture (Harig) or any one you prefer to use. The setup barrel was placed on a surface grinder, and spun until I could hit the surface with a file. Barrel was then setup in a lathe where thread major diameter was turned, then the threads were cut. Start to finish 1 hour cost $60. No cbn- 5606 inserts, no ceramic, no diamond wheels. Only thing that was required was 2 machine tools and a little common sense.

You are still assuming that these barrels are case hardened, which you may not if you watch the video?
Add to that the fact that the barrel in the video was a bull barrel, and the one I am looking to cut is a sporter barrel with only .155 wall thickness.
Was the barrel you set up an threaded a Blaser, or some other manufacturer? Thanks for the information!

 

[NodecoMachine]

Your looking up the wrong process, Melonite and Nitriding are completely different. Melonite is 65+ Rc. I guess I'll repeat my original post again on how to thread the end of a Blaser or any other barrel that has been Melonited, NOT NITRIDED. You have to get under case hardness & also receive the area where the initial thread lead will start. You should expect to remove at least .050 from the diameter to get to machinable metal that high speed steel will cut. The barrel I threaded was setup in a spin grind fixture (Harig) or any one you prefer to use. The setup barrel was placed on a surface grinder, and spun until I could hit the surface with a file. Barrel was then setup in a lathe where thread major diameter was turned, then the threads were cut. Start to finish 1 hour cost $60. No cbn- 5606 inserts, no ceramic, no diamond wheels. Only thing that was required was 2 machine tools and a little common sense.

Sorry, I was just going off of what someone said previously and I didn't see melonite mentioned. But after googling "blaser barrel hardness" I see a number of mentions of nitriding and no melonite.

 

[WayneC369]

goodsteel, I didn't read this entire post as I quickly got tired of the bullshit, but one thing I noticed in your video is the positioning of your QC tool post. I suggest you set that thing SQUARE to the z axis of your lathe. It's a quick change, right??? Therefore, your holders, when properly selected for the type of turning/facing operation will already have the proper angles set unless you are doing some weird-ass geometry and there's no other choice. So, when you have your tooling set up you simply switch holders and NOT dick around with the post other then pushing and pulling the locking lever.

I saw a right hand holder with a Vxxx pocket in it. Bring that post around square and see if it doesn't make a difference. You're basically poking the end of that insert into the material and any chip that has a chance to form is forming around the radius of that insert and gets crowded rather quickly with NO where to go. Then the carbide is chipped and only rubs at this point. If you want quick change tooling to work for you you've gotta lose the old school mind set. Holders are cheap compared to inserts. Below is a snap shot of a few my my holders with various holder/insert geometries on a manual lathe:



Your post should be dialed in square with a dial indicator, but a quick and dirty method is to square it up against the tail stock quill OR a recently faced, good sized, piece of stock in the chuck. For most jobs this will suffice. For stupid accuracy dial it in.

I've got some cheap as dirt VNMG inserts I use for most things. Almost the same geometry as yours they are designed for light finish cuts. In mild steel they rock at 0.100" DOC. I use NO coolant/cutting oil except for threading. When cutting the hard materials I run a relatively LOW surface speed (RPM) and slightly higher feed with a relatively shallow DOC, usually 0.025". I have turned Thompson shafting with these things. Don't expect insert life to be forever as it's hard material after all.

 

[hitandmiss]

I see I am late to the party.

I would check out the PCBN inserts from here.

PCBN Cutting Tools | Shape-Master Tool

I am using used CNGA-432TH MT-L grade SM-860 inserts that were changed on run time well before failure, cutting hardened power metal gears.
This size and shape of insert resists squirming around in the holder better than other shapes and smaller sizes.

Turning down Rc60 D2 is like butter at about 400 RPM on 1" material, 010" DOC and light feeds, and done dry.

This is done on my SB 10L of all lathes.

They also sell PCBN threading inserts.

Hope this helps.

Bill

 

[litlerob1]

It is Melonited which is to us the knowing also called case hardening or nitriding, but harder. You just need to get through the melonite which is a trademark process. But it's about 64rc hard as shit, with a thickness of .008" to .04" can you whittle that much off? If not you need to be looking at some very expensive tooling especially for the threading.

Robert my ±2

EDIT sorry I didn't watch the video all the way through, so you successfully completed the job congrats. Oh and don't mind George, he's a troll without even knowing what a troll is, and he has been retired sometime now, I'm surprised he even knows how to use one of these new fangled electric typing machines. He's just an old guy, with nothing better to do and the drinking thing is more like throwing peanuts at the zoo animals, if you knowwhatimean.

 

[gmatov]

TR,

"George- he's just some guy trying to get a job done. "

That may be but he comes across as arrogant. HE knows! He does NOT know, or he would not be begging for answers. 'Smiths can charge whatever they want I had a 169 buck, when I bought it 30-40 YA Rem pump .22 BARREL blued a short time back. 200 BUCKS!!! I paid it. He charged me that much, what can I say? DID do a very good job. I would like to know if HE can do that.

One can buy a lathe and hang out a shingle, one can hang out a shingle and become a "gunsmith", that does not mean you ARE one.

As to hammer forged see here: Barrel Making - The Art and Science

" As a result, the bench rest crowd won’t touch a hammer forged barrel." So just how smart IS this guy who, as you say, is "just trying to make a buck"?

I do not care WHAT he does. I do not think he is what you would REALLY call a "gunsmith". But then I am a drunken old man. Wilson has spread that OH so much. I contradict him, I must be drunk. "Nobody is allowed to contradict ME! They must be drunk!"

THEN nodeco comes up with this: "Oh and I looked on google about how hard the nitriding is and looks like mid 50s but not very deep." Every .45 made for WWII was nitrided not a polish4d pistol n the bunch and that bunch was BIG. Every rifle AYE ever carried was nitrided not a goddamned one was polished blued steel. That shit rusts! I have been there, carried them, cared for them. Sacred piece of equipment to a Marine and I were one.

So is this a dipshit who cannot cut steel or what?

I know, I must be drunk to reply at 2:17 AM.

George

 

[gmatov]

littlerob,

I have probably had computers since before you were born.

" EDIT sorry I didn't watch the video all the way through, so you successfully completed the job congrats. Oh and don't mind George, he's a troll without even knowing what a troll is, and he has been retired sometime now, I'm surprised he even knows how to use one of these new fangled electric typing machines. He's just an old guy, with nothing better to do and the drinking thing is more like throwing peanuts at the zoo animals, if you knowwhatimean.(sic) "

I bought my first in 1981. Were you even EXISTANT in 1981? I still HAVE that computer. Do you still have your first Gameboy, or whatever the first gamer came out while you were growing up?

I AM retired have been for 10 years. Does that,to you, mean that I am stricken with Altzheimers? Young punks should think before they make such stupid replies. You absolutely qualify.

Now do you STILL think I am an idiot or are you? I am coherent. I AM old! Is that BAD?

I actually DO know what a "troll" is. You must not. I post here regularly. You have been here 413 times in about 22 months. I really do not pay much attention to whatever YOU have to say. Sayonara.

George

 

[thermite]

I am coherent. I AM old! Is that BAD?

George?

You beat all HELL outta stale lager beer, interstate highway hypnosis, and daytime TV, so I hope you get as old as you care to do!



Bill

 

[Trboatworks]

No problem George.

I am sympathetic with the guy as I am also a "dipshit who can't cut steel".
I end up having to ask plenty of questions that the pros here find too basic for words- that's how it goes for guys like me and the OP who are trying to make a buck in this trade and are working independently without experienced lathe hands to learn from.

Shoot- I get this coffee down and I am going to the shop this morning to finish up a job on the lathe.
A couple of parts- I can bill two of the ten hours I have in the work..

That's how it goes till you learn the ropes- ask questions, keep making parts and hopefully get your game up to speed..

A Marine eh?
I used to work with a Marine years back- WWII era- he was one tough bird and had done all those landings through the Pacific.
He tried to keep my shit straight on jobs- I didn't listen..

 

[litlerob1]

George it was just information, and I'm pretty sure I said I didn't think drinking was the problem "it's more like throwing peanuts". It's just a joke, and I'm a little bit older than you think I may be, so no I don't even know what a gameboy is, I have been machining if you want to call it that since I was 8, and my Dad was a Marine, and I make huge shit too. BTW are you still using that computer from 1981? Or are you just a hoarder? See.........PEANUTS

Robert

 

[jlrii]

littlerob,

I have probably had computers since before you were born.

" EDIT sorry I didn't watch the video all the way through, so you successfully completed the job congrats. Oh and don't mind George, he's a troll without even knowing what a troll is, and he has been retired sometime now, I'm surprised he even knows how to use one of these new fangled electric typing machines. He's just an old guy, with nothing better to do and the drinking thing is more like throwing peanuts at the zoo animals, if you knowwhatimean.(sic) "

I bought my first in 1981. Were you even EXISTANT in 1981? I still HAVE that computer. Do you still have your first Gameboy, or whatever the first gamer came out while you were growing up?

I AM retired have been for 10 years. Does that,to you, mean that I am stricken with Altzheimers? Young punks should think before they make such stupid replies. You absolutely qualify.

Now do you STILL think I am an idiot or are you? I am coherent. I AM old! Is that BAD?

I actually DO know what a "troll" is. You must not. I post here regularly. You have been here 413 times in about 22 months. I really do not pay much attention to whatever YOU have to say. Sayonara.

George

More like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbU4Cb4A4-o

...Just angry...Nuff said

 

[gmatov]

akajun

But it was developed in Germany over 50 YA. It is nothing new.

George W, Possibly because of this you get dragged in:


Big B
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Sometimes when I read Georges late night posts I think he could use a breathalyzer on his keyboard.

Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
Dont mind George. he was probably drunk again.

Like

gwilson likes this."

So you HAVE read and you have commented. Ergo I can include you because you ALWAYS insist that I am drunk.

It AIN'T hard all the way through. On 4140 depth is up to .028. I do NOT know what the muzzle OD was. I do know that the finished thread was meant to be 1/2-28. I don't even know what in the hell a Blaser is, nor why you NEED a suppressor. An AR-15 copy?

He did NOT say he had turned it down and complete the job. He is still asking for advice, but you may have not noticed that. You only noticed that you could get in another dig at me.

See,in post #45, we see that the bbl. is .155 wall X2 is .310, which could be plus bore of.223 .433 which would NOT be able to have a 1/2-28 thread made on it. And it can't be a .50, so it has to be in the range of .30 or 9 mm or thereabouts.

This takes me off the OP, but I am a hoarder. I still have that VIC20, first I bought for my youngest daughter, about 34 YA.

Rob, I never knew what a "Gameboy" was either. My 12 ad 10 YO G'sons decided they wanted them their parents bought them I buy old SW for them. I bought them both iPods, but it seems that OLD crippled programs are better. They SEEM to enjoy them more.

Bill, I drink "Classic Lager" 25.66 for 2 30's. I am not a beer snob in any manner. IT ALL tastes like it should be put back in the horse. I have never BOUGHT a beer in my life. I have rented it. It is going to be pissed out in no more than half an hour.

AS to the OP, I would have tried MY inserts and I DO think that I did have something that COULD cut what he has. I have had some tough SOB job that a better insert COULD have made my life easier. I had a stupid prick of a boss who would not pay the extra for an insert that could do the job. Back in them days, maybe a buck.

I cannot BELIEVE that you pay 30 to 40 bucks for a tiny insert that is no better than what I used 40 YA, and we paid ONE buck for.

I am old, OK, and I do remember 26 cent gas, but 40 bucks for an insert. Ridiculous!
Rob, : He's just an old guy, with nothing better to do and the drinking thing is more like throwing peanuts at the zoo animals, if you knowwhatimean."

I THINK I know what you mean "wink,wink." I MAY not ACTUALLY BE a drunk, is that what you HINT at, or do you think that throwing peanuts MAKES me a drunk? I have never BEEN TO a zoo. I have been to see the dinosaur fossils. Does that count? Can I drink when I go to see bones? But then, that would be in the daytime. I NEVER drink before 9 PM. BBall game on, I may not have my first till midnight so, how do YOU, AND GW get to the point that I MUST be a drunk.

How about AYE start a thread that says you are members of Ashley whatever her name is? AYE think it has been posted easy to find. Don't fuck with me. I don't like a lot of you anymore than you do not like me. Are you better than I was because you can program in what I had to do manually. I do not think so, Many of the "Machinists" here do not rate the nomenclature. Vidoegamers more like.

Gone for the night.



George

 

[machtool]

Machtool, I haven't seen it happen to a punch. I have seen a swaging die burst like a hand grenade. There is a reason they put interlocked guards on those presses.

I thought those interlocked guards were to keep hands and pinkies out of harms way. If it was truly for Grenading " Swaging dies. wouldn't they be made put of armour-plate, rather than the metal mesh / Lexan / polycarbonite.

None of that matters, This is what you stated.

This is a bad situation . Material that hard is bordering on brittle and that means BOOM after enough cycles.

That was an out right statement, No thing to do with guns or cannons. The pure statement was "Material that hard is bordering on brittle"

That's just not the case is it? There's thousands of example's where that's just not true. So save me the interlock bullshit..

 

[machtool]

George, do you count the 60 -80 bottles of Vino you make per year, in that beer consumption thing? That's documented here .Happy to find you a reference.

Bill, I drink "Classic Lager" 25.66 for 2 30's

So that's 60 cans for $25.66? Don't blame me. It was you that said you buy the cheapest piss available.

And after all the swings and round about's, I'll bring you back to post # 3

A good barrel will be 4140. If you cannot cut that, get a new job.

eXclusively George? No other material permitted? Nitried, Melonited,Tuffride. There couldn't possibly be a reason why the Original Poster is finding this barrel,
as hard as a whore's heart? Lets all gather around the camp fire, while Uncle George tells as about the 60'S. That could be the 1860's at this rate.

"Largest Manufacturing Forum on the Internet" Yet we allow this vile, bitter, drunk, to constantly spew his bile.

 

[gwilson]

Stupid bastard seems to have me on his mind a lot,when I hadn't even posted in this thread until he brought my name into it.

BTW,I have never played a video game in my life! And,I think I'm older than that old geezer!!!

 

[litlerob1]

How about AYE start a thread that says you are members of Ashley whatever her name is? AYE think it has been posted easy to find. Don't fuck with me. I don't like a lot of you anymore than you do not like me. Are you better than I was because you can program in what I had to do manually. I do not think so, Many of the "Machinists" here do not rate the nomenclature. Vidoegamers more like.

George

I really, really wish you would George, I'm serious. I wish you would start a thread about us "members of Ashley whatever her name is". 10-1 on a lock, anyone?

how do YOU, AND GW get to the point that I MUST be a drunk

Personally (not Wilson just me) I "get the point" because your Serbian English is all garbled and screwy, most of the time what you post doesn't even make sense AT ALL, and that you post only trash and negativity and already stated "Bile". Honestly George I don't think you should be banned, I think your posts are really entertaining. But you NEVER contribute anything to this forum, just fuck all. I mess with people too, but I am a joker and I think people here know it. When I do have industry related advice or info. or input it is at least stomachable. You seem incapable to do that, all shit all insult all the time. So fuck you too GeorgeM. But seriously post a new thread about Ashley whatever her name is.

Robert my ±2