Helping young Engineers, only to have them send work to China

[WA-CNC]

So two different young engineers and two situations that have my blood pressure up.

These two guys work for a company that I’ve done work for years.

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Engineer #1

Quote #1

Sends me an assembly to quote, one part is made from 3 pieces, but can be made from one piece. So I point this out to him, and send him a revised design so he understands. Agrees reluctantly it’s better. Also have to tell him there isn’t enough room to get a 1/4NPT thread in the sidewall, it needs to be 1/8NPT

Same quote has another 2 parts, a shaft and a disk. It’s a historical design that was a poor design from the beginning. The original designer had the design sealed with RTV on a thread, and on the face of a Nut. I changed the design to add an o-ring. None of my parts have ever leaked after the change. This young engineer doesn’t know about this change. He should but doesn’t. So I explain to him it should be changed, and even offer to make the change for him gratis.

Last part of the quote is assembly, which includes shaft seals. His assembly drawing shows seals as a blob, doesn’t show in the drawing the correct orientation. So I point out to him without specific instructions there’s a 50% chance a vendor would get the orientation wrong (not me I’ve been installing them correctly in a similar unit for years) and the vendor has to make a tool to install the seal without tearing up the rubber on the od of the seal.

Told him if gets the parts delivered assembled there’s no way he can verify the seals are aligned correctly or not damaged on installation. Short of doing a leak test.

So I spend a lot of time helping this engineer. I’m told a Chinese vendor quoted $400. So I looked at the numbers, and give a quote of $425, assuming a labor rate at $90/hour

Get an e-mail saying I have been approved for 5 assemblies at $425ea, and should expect a PO shortly.

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So Engineer #2

Sends me a part to quote 16” dia disk with 10 pockets, pockets both sides are .300 deep, with lots of sloping surfaces, and every corner has a .040 radius. And on one edge of the pocket there’s a tongue that sticks out that .600” ling and .04 thick. No material speciified

So I call him up and want to talk generally about this part, the purpose of the tongue, does he realise not easy to machine, and likely not durable either.

So he says he’s had it quoted in China, $510 landed to his door step. So I ask what material did they quote, he said they recomened Bakelite. I’m driving while talking to him, and nearly drive off the road.

“Do you know what Bakelite is?”
“No”

So proceed to tell him the joys of machining Bakelite and that it’s really unsuitable for what he wants to do.

We talk material, I asked did he consider 6061, no he said it might be too heavy, check in CAD, it's 13.2#. Customer says that's ok not to heavy.

So when I get home I modify his design to make the Tongue part removeable, so if they get damaged, remove 2 fasteners, and put a new one in. Send him a picture which he appreciates, and a quote. Which he says is too high.

So I said I assume your going with the Chinese vendor, doesn’t say anything. Then I said I assume your going to make that tongue removeable as I showed you, so your getting a better part and in Aluminum, and somebody else is getting the work?. Doesn’t say anything

No good deed goes unpunished.

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Right after I send a quote to Engineer #2 and his rejection, I get an e-mail from Engineer #1 saying the 5 assemblies have been awarded to another (Chinese) vendor.

I HIT THE F’ING ROOF.

The e-mail also says he didn’t quite understand what changes needed to be done to the shaft to add the o-ring and would confirm with me the what was actually required. (THIS AFTER SENDING THE WORK ELSEWHERE!!)

So what to do?

I’m thinking, road, engineer, bus.

So write an e-mail to the boss.(cc’ing the engineer and buyer) The whole sorry saga. About the different stages I had to advise him on the design, the changes he should make based on the experience I had making similar parts for the company for years.

And specifically pointed out a couple of areas that if I hadn’t ventured some advice the parts would be substandard, and issues in relation to the seals

E-mail started off red hot, took a few re-writes before it was relatively calm and professional.

So a few hours later talked to the boss, he apologized, said Engineer 1 still had a lot to learn, and sorry for indicating you’ll get the work, and have it awarded somewhere else, wouldn’t happen again etc etc.

I'll find out thru the grapevine if he got a reaming or not. Hopefully he did.
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Get this e-mail from Engineer #1

Hi xxxxx,

I realize now I messed up in my actions. Especially shouldn't promise we'd source an order with you, only to go elsewhere. Especially after you did extra work in the geometry and development that leads to a much better final result.

This is something I'm going to need to improve upon with myself and try to prevent from happening in the future.

Best Regards,

Xxxxxx

I e-mailed back

xxxxxx,

Thank you for getting back to me. It's all a learning experience.

Don't hesitate if you need any help in the future

Xxxxx xxxx

I think the chance of either engineer getting any help down the road is zero to none.

 

[WA-CNC]

there's another quote I did for Engineer #1, a bunch of disks.

Had to explain the differences between Acetal/PVC/UHMW/Nylon. Took a long time to convince him that Black Acetal is the material to use, which is the material that has been used for a similar part for years.

I had Black Acetal and PVC quoted from 3 different sources and gave him the best price for Black Acetal vs PVC. There wasn't a big difference in the finish machined price between the 2 materials.

I suspect that jobs going to China as well.

 

[PDW]

About all you can do is point out that the 'free' design advice was predicated on you getting the work. If this wasn't going to be the case, in future any design advice would need to be billed as a separate professional consultation and paid for at <insert hourly rate here>. Calls to discuss work would be regarded as implicit acceptance of this arrangement.

And send it to his boss.

You likely won't get any more work, but you also won't be giving out free advice either.

PDW

 

[WA-CNC]

About all you can do is point out that the 'free' design advice was predicated on you getting the work. If this wasn't going to be the case, in future any design advice would need to be billed as a separate professional consultation and paid for at <insert hourly rate here>. Calls to discuss work would be regarded as implicit acceptance of this arrangement.

And send it to his boss.

You likely won't get any more work, but you also won't be giving out free advice either.

PDW

Plan is zero advice going forward. No more help will be provided.

The buyer/purchasing agent thinks these two engineers are idiots. So if I tried to bill for engineering support, may not get paid, but he wouldn't be offended.

Engineer #1 and I had long conversations about going out to the desert (not together, just general desert travels), astronomy, desert camping etc. He's a strange character, quite interesting. Might be surprised that any conversations going forward will be work related , and extremely brief.

 

[jellywerker]

Well, you're a saint, so thanks for educating some people who weren't grateful. 10 years from now they will hopefully realize that was a terrible dick move on their part.

I've moved work to China. I've moved work from China to domestic. I always try to reward people who help me make better parts as best I can, and thanks to people like you, I can design pretty good parts now. .

I know it must burn, but again, thanks for your efforts in educating people and helping to make sure less useless and wasteful parts get made.

 

[Garwood]

I don't do job work, just products and some repair stuff. I've given out design advice to a few engineers I've known. Initially I was just flattered they used my ideas. I realized I should put my brain energy into stuff that benefits me and stop helping them.

I made a fixture design suggestion that saved Freightliner $20M in labor on a recall. They had teams of engineers working on it for weeks. My immediate suggestion was what they went with. Gave my ego a boost.

 

[jccaclimber]

While these two young engineers clearly need some help, if you told the boss and the parts are still going to China then the boss, IE the mentor of these young engineers, doesn’t value you enough either. If the boss did value your time, assuming they aren’t letting the parts go to China to fail, they would have directed them to you.

 

[EmGo]

Plan is zero advice going forward. No more help will be provided.

Seems like a lesson we all have to learn. In a very few cases, helping a customer works out but usually, there's a relevant saying : "In business there are no friends".

 

[jerholz]

So this guy was walking with his young son when they came across a couple of dogs humping. The kid said "look at that, dad.". The guy did some quick thinking and said "wow it looks like the one in back hurt his leg and the one in front is helping him get home."

A few minutes later, the kids says "you know, I was just thinking about those dogs. It just goes to show you, if you try to help someone out, they'll @$#&# you every time."

 

[john.k]

And PM ers say no one will ever pay for a quote ......this is exactly why all the shops here charge ,not just for a quote ,but an up front of $50 for even disturbing the bear..........as a fellow I knew used to say..."You re young,you will learn......eventually"

 

[???]

And PM ers say no one will ever pay for a quote ......this is exactly why all the shops here charge ,not just for a quote ,but an up front of $50 for even disturbing the bear..........as a fellow I knew used to say..."You re young,you will learn......eventually"

No one in the industry including me charges for a quote around here. This is a constant talking point of people working in the industry. Maybe repair, but never production or tool making. Tool making is a real pain because you need to work out a concept mould to quote. Having worked in the IT field where there is a quote rejection fee this sucks but unfortunately we are quoting against China. Fortunately I predominantly make my own products which legally can't be made in China.

 

[john.k]

I woke up to what giving free advice was costing me a lot of years ago .......a classic I recall was "So ,do you know why the system is malfunctioning ?"......Yes ............Well ,are you going to tell me how to fix it?.......No.

 

[EmGo]

And PM ers say no one will ever pay for a quote ......this is exactly why all the shops here charge ,not just for a quote ,but an up front of $50 for even disturbing the bear......

If you want to send even more work to Taiwan, China, Singapore, Korea and places east, then go right ahead. Other people don't do that.

Fact of life.

 

[DanielG]

My question is who made the call to send the work to China, the engineer or purchasing. From Engineer 1's comment that you would get the PO even though you were more expensive, it sounds like the latter situation. If so, they got screwed too, albeit not as much as you.

 

[EmGo]

My question is who made the call to send the work to China,

Bean counters. But it's not accurate to always say "send the work to China" because this used to happen before China even talked to the outside world. Back then it was "send the work to LA" or wherever. Many many times been in op's position, but instead of guangdong it was glendale or redwood city or even two miles away. As they say, money talks.

Once in a while going way out of your way to help people works out, but it's much better to just think of that as charity, because 95 times out of 100 the favor is not returned. I can't say never, that's not true, but close.

 

[Seesecurity]

And PM ers say no one will ever pay for a quote ......this is exactly why all the shops here charge ,not just for a quote ,but an up front of $50 for even disturbing the bear..........

No, they don't.

 

[WA-CNC]

My question is who made the call to send the work to China, the engineer or purchasing. From Engineer 1's comment that you would get the PO even though you were more expensive, it sounds like the latter situation. If so, they got screwed too, albeit not as much as you.

These 2 engineers sometimes send work to China and don't tell the purchasing guy.. He's had to sit them down a few times and read them the riot act.

Engineer #1 might possibly learn his lesson. #2 will when I get a chance to throw him under the bus too.

 

[WA-CNC]

I have another customer that I quote 1 offs. Small parts typically

The first thing I do is run it thru the Xometry quote generator, because I know this is what the customer is doing. I look at the Xometry China price and decide whether I'm even going to bother quoting. generally I get the job if I can turn around in a few days and beat the Xometry delivery. Or it's a part they don't want to send to Xometry as it may get f'd up, which has been a problem with a lot of the Xometry China parts.

No big deal though, they've always been straight with me, and appreciated a few occasions when I suggested changes.

Now the sheet metal different story. Their local Irvine vendor takes a week to quote, and lead time is 6-8 weeks. My guy quotes in 1 day, I double the quote, promise delivery 2 weeks or less, and so far have beaten the Irvine vendor on price. I wish all work was that easy.

 

[boosted]

I have found that the customers who want to chat me up for an hour of free advice are exponentially more likely to send a job anywhere else to save a few bucks.

Or, if we are “lucky” enough to get the job, it’s always a $500 trinket that gets rev changed four times before it starts and requires six more phone calls.

I am turning into a cranky old man who doesn’t want to quote anything without a CAD model and a decent print…

 

[WA-CNC]

If you want to send even more work to Taiwan, China, Singapore, Korea and places east, then go right ahead. Other people don't do that.

Fact of life.

A recurring local problem is the speed at which local US shops quote, i.e slowly. and what they require, stp, pdf's etc. I helped a friend get quotes locally on a project he was involved with. Gave him a list of shops who could do the work. He e-mailed and called them all. Half never bothered to get back to him. The other half, some where ok with stp files, some needed pdf's. I had to explain to him often the quoter guy didn't have a CAD system, needed drawings so they could see tolerances, threads, welding requirements etc etc.

So to help him out I did a bunch of quick drawings for him (gratis (I'm sensing a pattern here)) with enough to get the part quoted. Maybe 30 parts. Took a day, a friend in need so no big deal, so he could forward them to the quoters.

Waited a few days to see if had any quotes back, nada, four days nada.

Fifth day he calls and says he's placed the order, to a Chinese company. I ask why?

Well he said apparently the local companies couldn't be bothered to quote, or took too long. He sent a stp file to a chinese company late afternoon, had a quote in his inbox the next morning. 3 weeks delivery ARO to his shop. Very good price. And the quality was excellent as well. Without drawings expressing tolerances etc they managed to make parts right on the money.