Helping young Engineers, only to have them send work to China

[EmGo]

Dunno, just rambling at this point, but you guys are making me second guess my trusting and open nature

It's unfortunate, but that's the US you live in. Interesting that Japan did so well partly because they had these solid long-term relationships, which the goldman-sachs types have been trying to get them to abandon. And of course, as they have done some of that, they have gone backwards in price and quality and also quality of life.

I say we storm wall street with pitchforks and flaming torches and run the bastards out of town on a rail, but that's not going to happen

 

[DDoug]

It's unfortunate, but that's the US you live in. Interesting that Japan did so well partly because they had these solid long-term relationships, which the goldman-sachs types have been trying to get them to abandon. And of course, as they have done some of that, they have gone backwards in price and quality and also quality of life.

I say we storm wall street with pitchforks and flaming torches and run the bastards out of town on a rail, but that's not going to happen

Heartless bastards no less....

 

[jccaclimber]

Lots of dollars, little control. You can bet at least a few of the 450 were getting kickbacks. A purchasing dept. is more important the bigger a place is.

Not to say purchasing never gets kickbacks, but at least it's centralized and hopefully easier to oversee.

At some point an engineer ordered a fleet of class 8 semi tractors on a personal credit card, the put it in for reimbursement. Oddly I don’t think he was fired for it, but a whole lot of rules about personal card use were implemented along with a “We’re watching you closely.” letter. I really do hope the credit cad points were worth it because it definitely shortened their tenure there.

 

[john.k]

I had my workshop PO book taken away by the new manager ........I took it as an insult from a millenial (the worst kind).......and swore on a left handed monkey wrench to get him back ...bigtime............Had one lovely bit of revenge when I binned the laptop with all the maintenance records ......didnt I back it up .......not so s youd notice.......An old dog for a hard road.

 

[???]

Do the people saying how they got or plan to get the engineer back think that they are doing the manufacturing industry outside of China any favors. A lot of engineers probably read these threads and then decide there is no way I would send any work to these local suppliers who may just get a bee in their bonnet and decide to sabotage my job.

There is probably some smart kid working on the next AI driven purchasing tool right now going "better add in that id the asshole algorithm looking for who posts crap on the web and make sure they are a blacklisted supplier". Oh sorry I forgot this conversation is only between you and the people on PM.

 

[dkmc]

I do quotes for free. Drawing, design, and reverse engineering, I charge for.

Sometimes a customer will bring a part by and say "You can have this to quote but then I need it back. Oh, and by the way, make a drawing because when I place the order the part will be in service and you can't have it back to copy."

I had that stipulation with one customer years ago. "Their" drawing was called a "Quote drawing" and may have had alternate information, dimensions, etc, that was not necessarily an accurate representation of the actual engineering drawing I produced to be able to make the part.....accurately. And it said so in the title block. In smallish font.

 

[EmGo]

At some point an engineer ordered a fleet of class 8 semi tractors on a personal credit card,

How many Peterbilts in a fleet ? Pretty sure my limit is less than even one :

 

[jccaclimber]

How many Peterbilts in a fleet ? Pretty sure my limit is less than even one :

I never got the count but I’m guessing the number is between 1 and 12. It was never clear to me if he only bought the first one that way and then got shut down and put the rest on a PO, or if he ran the whole order through. I know my credit limit isn’t that high, and that’s on purpose. For the record they were Volvo, not Peterbilt. I do wonder how much the dealer marked them up to cover the BS or running it over a credit card though.

 

[Portable Welder]

How many Peterbilts in a fleet ? Pretty sure my limit is less than even one :

Amen, I've been with the same 2 credit card companies for 29 years and never carry a balance, but charge about 3 - 7,000.00 a month and I couldn't even buy 1 with my impeccable credit history with them !!!

 

[Garwood]

My in-laws bought a house with credit cards a few years ago. They said it was easy.

 

[Fadriver]

So two different young engineers and two situations that have my blood pressure up.

These two guys work for a company that I’ve done work for years.

----------------------------------------------

Engineer #1

Quote #1

Sends me an assembly to quote, one part is made from 3 pieces, but can be made from one piece. So I point this out to him, and send him a revised design so he understands. Agrees reluctantly it’s better. Also have to tell him there isn’t enough room to get a 1/4NPT thread in the sidewall, it needs to be 1/8NPT

Same quote has another 2 parts, a shaft and a disk. It’s a historical design that was a poor design from the beginning. The original designer had the design sealed with RTV on a thread, and on the face of a Nut. I changed the design to add an o-ring. None of my parts have ever leaked after the change. This young engineer doesn’t know about this change. He should but doesn’t. So I explain to him it should be changed, and even offer to make the change for him gratis.

Last part of the quote is assembly, which includes shaft seals. His assembly drawing shows seals as a blob, doesn’t show in the drawing the correct orientation. So I point out to him without specific instructions there’s a 50% chance a vendor would get the orientation wrong (not me I’ve been installing them correctly in a similar unit for years) and the vendor has to make a tool to install the seal without tearing up the rubber on the od of the seal.

Told him if gets the parts delivered assembled there’s no way he can verify the seals are aligned correctly or not damaged on installation. Short of doing a leak test.

So I spend a lot of time helping this engineer. I’m told a Chinese vendor quoted $400. So I looked at the numbers, and give a quote of $425, assuming a labor rate at $90/hour

Get an e-mail saying I have been approved for 5 assemblies at $425ea, and should expect a PO shortly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Engineer #2

Sends me a part to quote 16” dia disk with 10 pockets, pockets both sides are .300 deep, with lots of sloping surfaces, and every corner has a .040 radius. And on one edge of the pocket there’s a tongue that sticks out that .600” ling and .04 thick. No material speciified

So I call him up and want to talk generally about this part, the purpose of the tongue, does he realise not easy to machine, and likely not durable either.

So he says he’s had it quoted in China, $510 landed to his door step. So I ask what material did they quote, he said they recomened Bakelite. I’m driving while talking to him, and nearly drive off the road.

“Do you know what Bakelite is?”
“No”

So proceed to tell him the joys of machining Bakelite and that it’s really unsuitable for what he wants to do.

We talk material, I asked did he consider 6061, no he said it might be too heavy, check in CAD, it's 13.2#. Customer says that's ok not to heavy.

So when I get home I modify his design to make the Tongue part removeable, so if they get damaged, remove 2 fasteners, and put a new one in. Send him a picture which he appreciates, and a quote. Which he says is too high.

So I said I assume your going with the Chinese vendor, doesn’t say anything. Then I said I assume your going to make that tongue removeable as I showed you, so your getting a better part and in Aluminum, and somebody else is getting the work?. Doesn’t say anything

No good deed goes unpunished.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right after I send a quote to Engineer #2 and his rejection, I get an e-mail from Engineer #1 saying the 5 assemblies have been awarded to another (Chinese) vendor.

I HIT THE F’ING ROOF.

The e-mail also says he didn’t quite understand what changes needed to be done to the shaft to add the o-ring and would confirm with me the what was actually required. (THIS AFTER SENDING THE WORK ELSEWHERE!!)

So what to do?

I’m thinking, road, engineer, bus.

So write an e-mail to the boss.(cc’ing the engineer and buyer) The whole sorry saga. About the different stages I had to advise him on the design, the changes he should make based on the experience I had making similar parts for the company for years.

And specifically pointed out a couple of areas that if I hadn’t ventured some advice the parts would be substandard, and issues in relation to the seals

E-mail started off red hot, took a few re-writes before it was relatively calm and professional.

So a few hours later talked to the boss, he apologized, said Engineer 1 still had a lot to learn, and sorry for indicating you’ll get the work, and have it awarded somewhere else, wouldn’t happen again etc etc.

I'll find out thru the grapevine if he got a reaming or not. Hopefully he did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get this e-mail from Engineer #1

Hi xxxxx,

I realize now I messed up in my actions. Especially shouldn't promise we'd source an order with you, only to go elsewhere. Especially after you did extra work in the geometry and development that leads to a much better final result.

This is something I'm going to need to improve upon with myself and try to prevent from happening in the future.

Best Regards,

Xxxxxx

I e-mailed back

xxxxxx,

Thank you for getting back to me. It's all a learning experience.

Don't hesitate if you need any help in the future

Xxxxx xxxx

I think the chance of either engineer getting any help down the road is zero to none.

Screw that place and find better customers, A sales rep. is calling me to make time, to visit me
to discuss a one part, prototype, and production will go to china.
I told him over the phone, to be patriot, and fuck china, he works for a korean co. base in here
he is retired, but making extra money, i told him keep looking around.

 

[SND]

I had some of that stuff back when I did prototype work, wasted hours and hours chasing unicorns and trying to help people solve their design problems for no $, never again.
At some point you have to stop wasting your time and find better work from better customers.

 

[john.k]

There is an old saying "start as you mean to be going on"........tell customers upfront that there is a charge for any work done in relation to their projects .

 

[CMI94]

So two different young engineers and two situations that have my blood pressure up.

These two guys work for a company that I’ve done work for years.

----------------------------------------------

Engineer #1

Quote #1

Sends me an assembly to quote, one part is made from 3 pieces, but can be made from one piece. So I point this out to him, and send him a revised design so he understands. Agrees reluctantly it’s better. Also have to tell him there isn’t enough room to get a 1/4NPT thread in the sidewall, it needs to be 1/8NPT

Same quote has another 2 parts, a shaft and a disk. It’s a historical design that was a poor design from the beginning. The original designer had the design sealed with RTV on a thread, and on the face of a Nut. I changed the design to add an o-ring. None of my parts have ever leaked after the change. This young engineer doesn’t know about this change. He should but doesn’t. So I explain to him it should be changed, and even offer to make the change for him gratis.

Last part of the quote is assembly, which includes shaft seals. His assembly drawing shows seals as a blob, doesn’t show in the drawing the correct orientation. So I point out to him without specific instructions there’s a 50% chance a vendor would get the orientation wrong (not me I’ve been installing them correctly in a similar unit for years) and the vendor has to make a tool to install the seal without tearing up the rubber on the od of the seal.

Told him if gets the parts delivered assembled there’s no way he can verify the seals are aligned correctly or not damaged on installation. Short of doing a leak test.

So I spend a lot of time helping this engineer. I’m told a Chinese vendor quoted $400. So I looked at the numbers, and give a quote of $425, assuming a labor rate at $90/hour

Get an e-mail saying I have been approved for 5 assemblies at $425ea, and should expect a PO shortly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Engineer #2

Sends me a part to quote 16” dia disk with 10 pockets, pockets both sides are .300 deep, with lots of sloping surfaces, and every corner has a .040 radius. And on one edge of the pocket there’s a tongue that sticks out that .600” ling and .04 thick. No material speciified

So I call him up and want to talk generally about this part, the purpose of the tongue, does he realise not easy to machine, and likely not durable either.

So he says he’s had it quoted in China, $510 landed to his door step. So I ask what material did they quote, he said they recomened Bakelite. I’m driving while talking to him, and nearly drive off the road.

“Do you know what Bakelite is?”
“No”

So proceed to tell him the joys of machining Bakelite and that it’s really unsuitable for what he wants to do.

We talk material, I asked did he consider 6061, no he said it might be too heavy, check in CAD, it's 13.2#. Customer says that's ok not to heavy.

So when I get home I modify his design to make the Tongue part removeable, so if they get damaged, remove 2 fasteners, and put a new one in. Send him a picture which he appreciates, and a quote. Which he says is too high.

So I said I assume your going with the Chinese vendor, doesn’t say anything. Then I said I assume your going to make that tongue removeable as I showed you, so your getting a better part and in Aluminum, and somebody else is getting the work?. Doesn’t say anything

No good deed goes unpunished.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right after I send a quote to Engineer #2 and his rejection, I get an e-mail from Engineer #1 saying the 5 assemblies have been awarded to another (Chinese) vendor.

I HIT THE F’ING ROOF.

The e-mail also says he didn’t quite understand what changes needed to be done to the shaft to add the o-ring and would confirm with me the what was actually required. (THIS AFTER SENDING THE WORK ELSEWHERE!!)

So what to do?

I’m thinking, road, engineer, bus.

So write an e-mail to the boss.(cc’ing the engineer and buyer) The whole sorry saga. About the different stages I had to advise him on the design, the changes he should make based on the experience I had making similar parts for the company for years.

And specifically pointed out a couple of areas that if I hadn’t ventured some advice the parts would be substandard, and issues in relation to the seals

E-mail started off red hot, took a few re-writes before it was relatively calm and professional.

So a few hours later talked to the boss, he apologized, said Engineer 1 still had a lot to learn, and sorry for indicating you’ll get the work, and have it awarded somewhere else, wouldn’t happen again etc etc.

I'll find out thru the grapevine if he got a reaming or not. Hopefully he did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get this e-mail from Engineer #1

Hi xxxxx,

I realize now I messed up in my actions. Especially shouldn't promise we'd source an order with you, only to go elsewhere. Especially after you did extra work in the geometry and development that leads to a much better final result.

This is something I'm going to need to improve upon with myself and try to prevent from happening in the future.

Best Regards,

Xxxxxx

I e-mailed back

xxxxxx,

Thank you for getting back to me. It's all a learning experience.

Don't hesitate if you need any help in the future

Xxxxx xxxx

I think the chance of either engineer getting any help down the road is zero to none.

We lost a bunch of really nice work to China. Went about a year and then the customer sent us an RFQ for a “rework”. Ended up being one of the big rotors that they sent to China. China f****d up 12 of them. We told them we’d fix them for time+ materials at a shop rate of triple our normal. They said it was too high of a price. We told them to boat them back to China to fix them.

 

[john.k]

I recall a company here that made coal slurry handling stuff .....quite specialized ,and every feature or novelty patented worldwide ............they got an order from China for a Jameson cell .....a sort of giant water cleaner .....multiple cyclones .........somewhat like a Dyson vac cleaner ,but 30 ft dia and weighing 20 tons .........It was to be the first of many ,they said ........Nope ,the Chinese just reverse engineered the first one ,never bought another.

 

[dkmc]

I recall a company here that made coal slurry handling stuff .....quite specialized ,and every feature or novelty patented worldwide ............they got an order from China for a Jameson cell .....a sort of giant water cleaner .....multiple cyclones .........somewhat like a Dyson vac cleaner ,but 30 ft dia and weighing 20 tons .........It was to be the first of many ,they said ........Nope ,the Chinese just reverse engineered the first one ,never bought another.

They did that with navy ships as well.

 

[EmGo]

They did that with navy ships as well.

Wasn't that Fat Albert, or Fat Eddie or something ? Plus he came up with a novel development, skipped the time-consuming part of doing the work and jumped straight to taking the money.

It's a good thing naval procurement officers are so diligent, otherwise these things could slip under the rug for years ...

 

[hmw1972]

I've always been above board with my customers. I put myself out and try to help them if I can. I only get burned once however and then the relationship is over. I don't mind taking a loss to find out who is good and who isn't. My grandpa had a philosophy about this. If someone beat him out of $20 he would say "well, it only cost me twenty bucks to find out he is an asshole". Of course this was back in the 1950's when $20 was worth alot more than it is now.

 

[Freedommachine]

So two different young engineers and two situations that have my blood pressure up.

These two guys work for a company that I’ve done work for years.

----------------------------------------------

Engineer #1

Quote #1

Sends me an assembly to quote, one part is made from 3 pieces, but can be made from one piece. So I point this out to him, and send him a revised design so he understands. Agrees reluctantly it’s better. Also have to tell him there isn’t enough room to get a 1/4NPT thread in the sidewall, it needs to be 1/8NPT

Same quote has another 2 parts, a shaft and a disk. It’s a historical design that was a poor design from the beginning. The original designer had the design sealed with RTV on a thread, and on the face of a Nut. I changed the design to add an o-ring. None of my parts have ever leaked after the change. This young engineer doesn’t know about this change. He should but doesn’t. So I explain to him it should be changed, and even offer to make the change for him gratis.

Last part of the quote is assembly, which includes shaft seals. His assembly drawing shows seals as a blob, doesn’t show in the drawing the correct orientation. So I point out to him without specific instructions there’s a 50% chance a vendor would get the orientation wrong (not me I’ve been installing them correctly in a similar unit for years) and the vendor has to make a tool to install the seal without tearing up the rubber on the od of the seal.

Told him if gets the parts delivered assembled there’s no way he can verify the seals are aligned correctly or not damaged on installation. Short of doing a leak test.

So I spend a lot of time helping this engineer. I’m told a Chinese vendor quoted $400. So I looked at the numbers, and give a quote of $425, assuming a labor rate at $90/hour

Get an e-mail saying I have been approved for 5 assemblies at $425ea, and should expect a PO shortly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Engineer #2

Sends me a part to quote 16” dia disk with 10 pockets, pockets both sides are .300 deep, with lots of sloping surfaces, and every corner has a .040 radius. And on one edge of the pocket there’s a tongue that sticks out that .600” ling and .04 thick. No material speciified

So I call him up and want to talk generally about this part, the purpose of the tongue, does he realise not easy to machine, and likely not durable either.

So he says he’s had it quoted in China, $510 landed to his door step. So I ask what material did they quote, he said they recomened Bakelite. I’m driving while talking to him, and nearly drive off the road.

“Do you know what Bakelite is?”
“No”

So proceed to tell him the joys of machining Bakelite and that it’s really unsuitable for what he wants to do.

We talk material, I asked did he consider 6061, no he said it might be too heavy, check in CAD, it's 13.2#. Customer says that's ok not to heavy.

So when I get home I modify his design to make the Tongue part removeable, so if they get damaged, remove 2 fasteners, and put a new one in. Send him a picture which he appreciates, and a quote. Which he says is too high.

So I said I assume your going with the Chinese vendor, doesn’t say anything. Then I said I assume your going to make that tongue removeable as I showed you, so your getting a better part and in Aluminum, and somebody else is getting the work?. Doesn’t say anything

No good deed goes unpunished.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right after I send a quote to Engineer #2 and his rejection, I get an e-mail from Engineer #1 saying the 5 assemblies have been awarded to another (Chinese) vendor.

I HIT THE F’ING ROOF.

The e-mail also says he didn’t quite understand what changes needed to be done to the shaft to add the o-ring and would confirm with me the what was actually required. (THIS AFTER SENDING THE WORK ELSEWHERE!!)

So what to do?

I’m thinking, road, engineer, bus.

So write an e-mail to the boss.(cc’ing the engineer and buyer) The whole sorry saga. About the different stages I had to advise him on the design, the changes he should make based on the experience I had making similar parts for the company for years.

And specifically pointed out a couple of areas that if I hadn’t ventured some advice the parts would be substandard, and issues in relation to the seals

E-mail started off red hot, took a few re-writes before it was relatively calm and professional.

So a few hours later talked to the boss, he apologized, said Engineer 1 still had a lot to learn, and sorry for indicating you’ll get the work, and have it awarded somewhere else, wouldn’t happen again etc etc.

I'll find out thru the grapevine if he got a reaming or not. Hopefully he did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get this e-mail from Engineer #1

Hi xxxxx,

I realize now I messed up in my actions. Especially shouldn't promise we'd source an order with you, only to go elsewhere. Especially after you did extra work in the geometry and development that leads to a much better final result.

This is something I'm going to need to improve upon with myself and try to prevent from happening in the future.

Best Regards,

Xxxxxx

I e-mailed back

xxxxxx,

Thank you for getting back to me. It's all a learning experience.

Don't hesitate if you need any help in the future

Xxxxx xxxx

I think the chance of either engineer getting any help down the road is zero to none

 

[EmGo]

youboob vid

This is the first one of these I've ever looked at, thanks freedom, now I hate you.

Disclaimer : these kind of wannabe h-a "personalities' with their tats and three-hour-a-day gym muscles and hats on backwards and blustery presentation are not my cup of tea and I'd almost bet this guy cannot even run a drill press.

but

to be fair, he's giving total credit to the forum discussion, not trying to steal it. So it's not really as bad as it looks.

and once was enough for these videos, they are obviously done just for the money, which I guess is what this whole youboob thing is about, oh well. It's not that much worse than reading Mark My Word peddle the same stuff for forty years.