Hi All--Newbie here on the 10EE front

[chale4incolo]

Hi all, I've been pretty active for a good while now in the Hardinge TL/T-10 world (I've had a 1947 T-10 for about 30 yrs now) but I just got back from a pretty epic journey from NW Arkansas to Front Range Colorado with a 1940 round-dial Sundstrand drive 10EE (S/N 7700). Oh boy! It was my brother's daily driver lathe for something like 50 years, and he very much wanted to pass it on to me, and here we are. Sadly in way more ways than one, he isn't able to communicate with me anymore on the 1 billion questions I've got, but I'm hoping and expecting that some of you black-belts here can help me out some. It's gonna be great, I can see that.

I've got a copy of the old-10EE manual that floats around out there, but it's missing Figure E. Seems like that's a pretty important Figure...does anyone have a copy of that they could shoot me? Thanks.

I'm sneaking up on oiling in particular now (got it level to within an arcsecond of its life); I'm surprised to find no mention of the big round filler cap in the very top of the headstock. Can anyone comment on that one please? Does it relate to one or both of the headstock sight-glasses that are NOT the two filler/glass pairs associated with the spindle bearings fore/aft? Thanks.

Hopefully our I-70 journey didn't rattle anything important outta whack, we'll see. Looks ok at least. The Sundstrand stuff is of course the blackest of black boxes to me (can't find the "6-page service bulletin", darn it--anybody got it??), but it sure was all working a-ok when last my brother and I turned the thing on a year or so ago, so, I'm hoping for the best there.

Do folks here agree that "there IS no manual for the Sundstrand drive 10EE lathe"? Like, there never was one, basically? (the Hardinge TL/T-10 never had a manual, at least not an extensive useful one) If there is one and you have a copy, could you send me a copy of it? Thanks.

I'll stop there and see if any of you guys can spare a few minutes/thoughts for me, thanks. To say it's an honor and privilege to come into possession of what I reckon may be the very pinnacle of American machine tool making, is an understatement. I hope to do it as much justice as my brother did in his very long tenure with it. Thanks again--Charley in Colorado ([email protected], and 303-475-2088 cell) ---couple of photos of fine new beast attached---

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

There is a Sundstrand-specific manual available. Monarch will sell a copy, but there may be a more legible/complete copy floating around among members here. The round dial owners will fill you in.

I can't remember if Monarch has build sheets for machines this early. Something in my memory is saying that maybe a fire destroyed some of the earliest ones. May be conflating some other memory there.

 

[chale4incolo]

Thanks Andy, I’ll stay tuned. I just earlier this PM decided to buy Ozark’s $40 manual that at least does have pretty much the “right” machine on the cover…I’ll see soon I suppose. Lots of questions still to go…!

 

[rimcanyon]

Charlie, nice machine! Mine is only 148 older, 7552. Its nice to see another machine with the original Sundstrand drive and an original taper attachment. Do you have the bed clamp for the taper attachment?

I posted the Sundstrand operators manual about a year ago, do a search for Sundstrand on this forum, I am sure you will find it.

If you contact Terri at Monarch she can tell you a bit about your machine, like who the original owner was, and she can send you a copy of the build sheet.

I am curious why there is a collet rack mounted on the machine, isn't there one in the cabinet below the bed? Every Sundstrand machine I have seen has a 5C or 2J collet rack in the cabinet.

What is the bracket for above the on/off switch and fwd/rev lever?

Someone added a bed stop bolted to the headstock.

 

[chale4incolo]

Charlie, nice machine! Mine is only 148 older, 7552. Its nice to see another machine with the original Sundstrand drive and an original taper attachment. Do you have the bed clamp for the taper attachment?

I posted the Sundstrand operators manual about a year ago, do a search for Sundstrand on this forum, I am sure you will find it.

If you contact Terri at Monarch she can tell you a bit about your machine, like who the original owner was, and she can send you a copy of the build sheet.

I am curious why there is a collet rack mounted on the machine, isn't there one in the cabinet below the bed? Every Sundstrand machine I have seen has a 5C or 2J collet rack in the cabinet.

What is the bracket for above the on/off switch and fwd/rev lever?

Someone added a bed stop bolted to the headstock.

Wow, thanks much, rimcanyon. Great thoughts and questions. Lemme see what I can do here:
—yep, the bulk, I think, of the taper attachment is there, very cool (on my T-10, 100% missing, ah well). I don’t know the bed clamp, could you describe/image it please? I may well have it.
—found your Sundstrand manual in a snap, thanks! I clearly need to up my game on searching the forum. I’ll be pulling every one of those images down immediately.
—yah, that 5C rack inside the door is evidently long gone. My bro didn’t even use his neat walnut rack up on the DRO stand for collets, rather, he put a big nest of chuck keys in it. I’ll continue the tradition I think : ) He also gave me a beautiful complete 5C’s in 1/64”’s in their own nice wall rack thing, that I’m going to “centrally locate” for both the 10EE and the T-10.
—Good q about that thing above the F/R lever, not stock, I take it? It’s an interesting thing, it appears to be a mechanical “lock” for the lever. The double-ended-cams thing detents around and either clears the lever to move F/R, or blocks it from moving. I’ll attach “clear” and “locked” photos. —Charley

 

[chale4incolo]

Wow, thanks much, rimcanyon. Great thoughts and questions. Lemme see what I can do here:
—yep, the bulk, I think, of the taper attachment is there, very cool (on my T-10, 100% missing, ah well). I don’t know the bed clamp, could you describe/image it please? I may well have it.
—found your Sundstrand manual in a snap, thanks! I clearly need to up my game on searching the forum. I’ll be pulling every one of those images down immediately.
—yah, that 5C rack inside the door is evidently long gone. My bro didn’t even use his neat walnut rack up on the DRO stand for collets, rather, he put a big nest of chuck keys in it. I’ll continue the tradition I think : ) He also gave me a beautiful complete 5C’s in 1/64”’s in their own nice wall rack thing, that I’m going to “centrally locate” for both the 10EE and the T-10.
—Good q about that thing above the F/R lever, not stock, I take it? It’s an interesting thing, it appears to be a mechanical “lock” for the lever. The double-ended-cams thing detents around and either clears the lever to move F/R, or blocks it from moving. I’ll attach “clear” and “locked” photos. —Charley

By the way, can you tell me what the ~ 3’-long bar that goes on the hooks on the front of the base is? I’ve got it, but I don’t know what it is! Thx—

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

By the way, can you tell me what the ~ 3’-long bar that goes on the hooks on the front of the base is? I’ve got it, but I don’t know what it is! Thx—

That's the knockout bar for spindle centers.

 

[plastikdreams]

That's the knockout bar for spindle centers.

Or unruly coworkers

 

[chale4incolo]

That's the knockout bar for spindle centers.

Got it, makes total sense, thanks—

 

[chale4incolo]

Charlie, nice machine! Mine is only 148 older, 7552. Its nice to see another machine with the original Sundstrand drive and an original taper attachment. Do you have the bed clamp for the taper attachment?

I posted the Sundstrand operators manual about a year ago, do a search for Sundstrand on this forum, I am sure you will find it.

If you contact Terri at Monarch she can tell you a bit about your machine, like who the original owner was, and she can send you a copy of the build sheet.

I am curious why there is a collet rack mounted on the machine, isn't there one in the cabinet below the bed? Every Sundstrand machine I have seen has a 5C or 2J collet rack in the cabinet.

What is the bracket for above the on/off switch and fwd/rev lever?

Someone added a bed stop bolted to the headstock.

Rimcanyon, my taper bed clamp issues are solved! I found the ~ 2’ threaded rod/nuts, and the clamp, photo attached. Started coming back to me…it seems to me the clamp needs a fairly thin rectangular shim in it to clamp onto the bed flat, that I’m not finding, but is easy enough to come up with. It’ll be a blast (eventuslly!) to fiddle around with long tapers, which I’ve never been able to do to date. —Charley

 

[Cal Haines]

... I'm surprised to find no mention of the big round filler cap in the very top of the headstock. Can anyone comment on that one please? ...

That's the fill for the center portion of the headstock. That is, everything in the headstock minus the spindle bearings, which have their own reservoirs in older model 10EEs.

 

[chale4incolo]

That's the fill for the center portion of the headstock. That is, everything in the headstock minus the spindle bearings, which have their own reservoirs in older model 10EEs.

Thanks, Cal, that’s what I figured, but I don’t seem to see that big top cap ever called out in the (sparse!) manual or its Figures A-G. But got it. By the way, I noted somewhere up above how my manual was missing “Figure E” (left and right ends detailed views); well, my sis-in-law rounded up a bunch of old 10EE materials my brother had, including a paper copy of this same old “V-S round dial” manual, except THIS one has Figure E! I can scan and provide it if anyone wants it here. All other pages are the same as that old manual out on the web.

 

[rimcanyon]

Rimcanyon, my taper bed clamp issues are solved! I found the ~ 2’ threaded rod/nuts, and the clamp, photo attached. Started coming back to me…it seems to me the clamp needs a fairly thin rectangular shim in it to clamp onto the bed flat, that I’m not finding, but is easy enough to come up with. It’ll be a blast (eventuslly!) to fiddle around with long tapers, which I’ve never been able to do to date. —Charley

That is good news. I noticed that your TA trays are pressed steel. Mine are cast iron. So can you take more photos of the TA? In 1940 Monarch re-designed the 10EE TA, and the new design was substantially different, most of the parts are not interchageable. It would be interesting to know if your machine has the new design, or if it is the older design but with steel trays.

Where does it need a shim? Can you take some photos of the bed clamp also? It looks like it is missing the lip at the front that attaches the clamp to the way. The lips often are broken off due to clamping the bed clamp to the bed and also locking the cross slide to the TA so it cannot move in and out freely.

 

[chale4incolo]

That is good news. I noticed that your TA trays are pressed steel. Mine are cast iron. So can you take more photos of the TA? In 1940 Monarch re-designed the 10EE TA, and the new design was substantially different, most of the parts are not interchageable. It would be interesting to know if your machine has the new design, or if it is the older design but with steel trays.

Where does it need a shim? Can you take some photos of the bed clamp also? It looks like it is missing the lip at the front that attaches the clamp to the way. The lips often are broken off due to clamping the bed clamp to the bed and also locking the cross slide to the TA so it cannot move in and out freely.

I’ll see if I can take better-detailed photos of the TA today. Yes, my bed clamp has the rear lip broken off too, which I guess is why it seems to need a shim? Basically as it is now, if I tighten the clamp’s “jaw” as tight as it’ll go, it’s still a bit shy of actually clamping on the bed flat, if that makes sense. Seems to me if I put a simple rectangle shim in there in-between the “jaw” and the bed flat, like 0.04” thk or so, it would be able to clamp ok. Maybe I should fix the broken-lip clamp, ie add a bolted-on plate that serves to give it a lip again? (Or weld one on, etc?

 

[chale4incolo]

I’ll see if I can take better-detailed photos of the TA today. Yes, my bed clamp has the rear lip broken off too, which I guess is why it seems to need a shim? Basically as it is now, if I tighten the clamp’s “jaw” as tight as it’ll go, it’s still a bit shy of actually clamping on the bed flat, if that makes sense. Seems to me if I put a simple rectangle shim in there in-between the “jaw” and the bed flat, like 0.04” thk or so, it would be able to clamp ok. Maybe I should fix the broken-lip clamp, ie add a bolted-on plate that serves to give it a lip again? (Or weld one on, etc?

Dave (I noted in an earlier post of yours?), see attached some pictures of what I see under the bent-metal covers for my TA, and one from below. I’m looking forward to using it at some point, just so I can say I have if nothing else. Charley

 

[Cal Haines]

I suspect that your taper attachment (TA) is a retrofit. You would have to get the build sheet from Monarch to know if it shipped with a TA. However, I'm not aware of another Sundstrand-drive machine with that style TA, nor of a motor-generator drive (or later) machine with the old style TA. I also see that your TA has the simple bolt-and-pinion type of adjuster instead of the micrometer adjuster.

Here's a link to a thread that discusses the differences between the Sundstrand-drive vs. later 10EE TAs:

Sundstrand-drive 10EE vs later 10EE Taper Attachment photos and differences.

I have been piecing together a taper attachment for a while now, and I wanted to provide some photos and measurements to those seeking info about it. I see very few differences overall, and looks like only mounting hole spacing would keep you from using one from a different style machine. Here...

www.practicalmachinist.com

The change appears to have happened when the early motor-generator drive 10EEs were introduced.

 

[chale4incolo]

I suspect that your taper attachment (TA) is a retrofit. You would have to get the build sheet from Monarch to know if it shipped with a TA. However, I'm not aware of another Sundstrand-drive machine with that style TA, nor of a motor-generator drive (or later) machine with the old style TA. I also see that your TA has the simple bolt-and-pinion type of adjuster instead of the micrometer adjuster.

Here's a link to a thread that discusses the differences between the Sundstrand-drive vs. later 10EE TAs:

Sundstrand-drive 10EE vs later 10EE Taper Attachment photos and differences.

I have been piecing together a taper attachment for a while now, and I wanted to provide some photos and measurements to those seeking info about it. I see very few differences overall, and looks like only mounting hole spacing would keep you from using one from a different style machine. Here...

www.practicalmachinist.com

The change appears to have happened when the early motor-generator drive 10EEs were introduced.

Thanks, Cal, very interesting for sure. I’ll be checking out that earlier thread. Unfortunately I don’t know if my brother ever used the TA (I would expect surely so). It’s a whole new functionality for me, as I’ve never gotten up the gumption and/or $-outlay to date to round the TA up for my Hardinge T-10.

 

[rimcanyon]

Yes, I agree with Cal. Your machine has the later design TA. So either it was retrofitted later, or the change occurred between your lathe and mine. There haven't been enough Sundstrand drive machines shown on the forum to know for sure. One thing about the difference is the bolt spacing to mount the TA on the back of the saddle changed when the new version came out. If you decide to clean up the machine and that includes removing the TA, you might find another set of holes, if it was a retrofit. If not, I would say it was original, because I think all 10EE's were drilled and tapped for a TA. And it would be confirmed if the build sheet lists a TA as original equipment, and there is only one set of holes.

 

[Ol2Stroker]

I have a nice follow rest for your machine, pm me if you'd be interested.

 

[plastikdreams]

I have a nice follow rest for your machine, pm me if you'd be interested.

I watch your videos religiously...you get the trans in the suburban yet?