Homebuilt CNC in Tokyo

[Bakafish]

Don't take the bait - not worth it. Focus on the task, not the distractions.

Agreed. Sorry for feeding...

 

[jspivey]

There are plenty of pricks here, as you have clearly seen. It's part of the reason why I almost never post anything. Why even bother when it's going to get taken over by their rude, unhelpful comments/bickering. Personally, I am very interested in reading about the progress of your build. As has already been said, this is out of the realm of a typical homebuilt POS router. Keep it going please.

 

[Big B]

While it would seem my post was 'off topic' for this forum which I humbly noted several times, you continuously imply that the quality of my post was poor. Your insulting gate keeping and needless disparagement over an unintentional infraction reflects poorly on you.

I need to take lessons in diplomacy from you. I've just never had a knack for telling someone to go to hell and have them looking forward to the trip.

 

[triumph406]

While it would seem my post was 'off topic' for this forum which I humbly noted several times, you continuously imply that the quality of my post was poor. Your insulting gate keeping and needless disparagement over an unintentional infraction reflects poorly on you.

As you've found your pretty much wasting your time here. The other site ***zone.*** is inhabited by a few people who know what their doing, but a lot of posters who's ability to give advice vastly outstrips their knowledge, so beware over there.

The only site that doesn't descend into chaos is linuxcnc.com. Plenty of posters there who walk the walk, rather than the talk but nokando.

I didn't see what your using for a control, there's some good chinese controls (GSK comes to mind) and cheap servos and drives. That's what i would use to get started. that's if you want to use chinese stuff. LNC comes form Taiwan so not as onerous.

 

[atomarc]

I looked at the OP's linked site and saw nothing but bathroom remodels. The CAD representations of his machine are nice, but they're just drawings...I haven't seen any tangible stuff or chips yet.

I'm on the forbidden ZONE,(THE GRIZZ) have done the "walk" as well as the "talk" so I think I know the drill.

His (OP's) prose is to die for, but I think the thread may be a dog and pony show..don't know.

Time will tell!

I too think the ZONE would be a much better forum for his questions.

Stuart

 

[jaguar36]

Sounds like an awesome project! Try to ignore all the trolls and snobs here. Lots of homebuilt machines out there making better parts than many 'professional' machinists running brand new hundred thousand dollar VMCs.

Your design looks pretty good. Aluminum extrusion will work just fine, however pay particularly care to how you connect to it. Assuming you aren't welding it all together you can lose alot stiffness in the joints. Also, since aluminum is not very good at dampening vibrations, you might consider filling the extrusions with sand and gravel. That would help with vibrations, give your machine some more mass and still be easily disassembled and disposed of.

Your spindle sounds incredibly heavy though. Does it have an ATC? Having that much mass up there is going to limit your accelerations, twist your bridge and generally make your life difficult. Might want to consider starting with just a *gasp* cheap router to start with while you get everything else working.

Something else to keep in mind is the noise this will generate. Its likey to run for hours at a time and make a ton of noise the whole time. Might want to look into sound proofing options.

What are you planning on using for controls?

You've mentioned that there is virtually no used machinery market in Japan. If so what happens to old machines? If they are just getting scrapped you could try and get ahold of parts off one. You can frequently find used linear bearings and/or ballscrews that are almost brand new for dirt cheap that way.

 

[Bakafish]

Sounds like an awesome project! Try to ignore all the trolls and snobs here. Lots of homebuilt machines out there making better parts than many 'professional' machinists running brand new hundred thousand dollar VMCs.

Agree. Some people want to make what they do into some exclusive club rather than encouraging and sharing knowledge. But in my experience, the most knowledgeable in a field are the most supportive, so these gatekeepers are just showing their weakness, seeming with little self awareness.

Your design looks pretty good. Aluminum extrusion will work just fine, however pay particularly care to how you connect to it. Assuming you aren't welding it all together you can lose alot stiffness in the joints. Also, since aluminum is not very good at dampening vibrations, you might consider filling the extrusions with sand and gravel. That would help with vibrations, give your machine some more mass and still be easily disassembled and disposed of.

Yes, this is absolutely part of the plan. There are several types of filling material that could ultimately be removable for recyclability. I will experiment with this, still low on my priority list.

Your spindle sounds incredibly heavy though. Does it have an ATC? Having that much mass up there is going to limit your accelerations, twist your bridge and generally make your life difficult. Might want to consider starting with just a *gasp* cheap router to start with while you get everything else working.

Yeah, she's a porker. The Japanese over build everything, and this is a completely sealed unit with no 'active' cooling, it relies on mass and thermal radiation. There are so few options here, and I've been trying to avoid using imports, trying to keep this as domestically sourced as possible. It doesn't have an ATC and it only has an ER25 collet, so it's really likely to be temporary until I find something better. In my defense it was sold at about %3 of the current selling price, I got a great deal, and I have a weakness for rescuing unwanted components.

Something else to keep in mind is the noise this will generate. Its likey to run for hours at a time and make a ton of noise the whole time. Might want to look into sound proofing options.

Yeah, neighbors are literally an arms reach away in Tokyo. The enclosure will be as big of a challenge as the machine itself. It isn't detailed in the images shown.

What are you planning on using for controls?

I don't want to start another flame war, somehow I'm guessing that controls are a source for such things. I'm a software engineer with a background in electronics, I will use open source hardware and software. I will detail it once everything is running.

You've mentioned that there is virtually no used machinery market in Japan. If so what happens to old machines? If they are just getting scrapped you could try and get ahold of parts off one. You can frequently find used linear bearings and/or ballscrews that are almost brand new for dirt cheap that way.

There's no market like in other countries. You can buy used equipment, but the 3 main challenges are:

1) With no longstanding hobbyist market and very limited space, there has never been a tradition of preserving and reselling old machines. The US still has ridiculous amounts of hardware from WW2 and the days when every man was expected to have a lathe in their garage. In Japan, such equipment was for specialists and was scrapped as soon as it stopped making money (and melted down as Japan drug itself out of the post-war era.) Until very recently most houses were wired with 20-30 amp service for the whole house (and due to a quirk in the current limiter half that at 200v) so you couldn't even power such a machine. As I said, I have the maximum residential service at 60A and pay a very high premium every month just for having that. These machines are for industrial shops, that's it, that's the market.

2) Cost is almost never a primary factor in Japanese business acquisitions. Given the choice of paying full price for a new machine or obtaining a similar, but older machine for free, virtually every Japanese company is going to pay the money. They want support and reliability and someone standing behind the equipment. The customer expectations of your own product are so incredibly high here, you would be a fool to take the risk of buying a used machine for most applications. Accountability is everything, a missed tolerance and your customer will demand a full CLCA report where you would have to explain that a used machine was the cause. If the machine was under support the manufacturer would be standing next to you and mitigating the damage. The difference between a costly mistake that can be recovered from and a complete loss of an account. Also, the government via subsidies and tax breaks and manufacturers with buybacks make it far easier to step into the latest machines which helps close the circle of this very closed loop economy that depends so much on domestic demand and regular equipment renewal.

3) Like most used cars here, used equipment is shipped to nearby emerging markets like Thailand and Vietnam where it is much more likely to make a profit. The culture there is obviously different, there are no support expectations and tolerances are not as critical. There's a reason Cà Lem has all that sweet old Japanese hardware.

As for parting out these machines, there is even less of a market for used parts than for used machines. It isn't non-existent though, the advent of domestic auction sites and online flea markets have opened up some great opportunities to small businesses trying to find a replacement part to keep an older machine alive, but it is mostly non-wear items like electronic components.

But all my rails and ball screws, and a large number of my drivers and steppers was from 'surplus' hardware dealers, who purchased them from manufacturers who are clearing out warranty parts for machines that are no longer supported or are liquidating. So brand new, factory fresh rails and ball screws for very little money. There are only a few such clearance houses here in Japan, and most of their business is selling this stuff overseas, but they support the small home hobbyists such as myself and engineering college students who are building school related projects.

 

[BugRobotics]

Stoked for you. Looking forward to seeing how this build evolves. Hope we can offer any help if needed.

 

[triumph406]

I don't want to start another flame war, somehow I'm guessing that controls are a source for such things. I'm a software engineer with a background in electronics, I will use open source hardware and software. I will detail it once everything is running.

Probably your best bet is Linuxcnc using Mesa boards. There's probably other ways you could go, but Linuxcnc if your a software engineer would be the way to go, and it's open source. Also the Linuxcnc forum is very active and receptive/welcoming.

 

[rk9268vc]

Centroid Acorn or OAK is also pretty good. Not as open source as linuxCNC, but you can go in and change all the PLC codes and make macros etc. Also has a pretty active forum and support. #notsponsored

 

[jaguar36]

I've had good luck with GRBL and bCNC. It may not be as full featured as some other choices, but it only requires a $10 Arduino to run. Its also dead simple to get up and running. Good to use while you are getting things working.

 

[triumph406]

Choosing the right Mesa Boards? - LinuxCNC

Mesa Card Basics - LinuxCNC

recommended pcs - LinuxCNC

LinuxCNC Documentation Wiki: Latency-Test

 

[Bakafish]

Yeah, I already have my controller boards and firmware, it will be enough to get the machine working and I hope will be a great basis for the machine. I don't mean to be cagy about it, I just don't want to have to defend my choice before I've had a chance to work with it. LinuxCNC is the most likely 'backup' plan if I'm unhappy with the current setup. I like the Acorn stuff too, but it's a more closed than I'm comfortable with and I do not like single vendor lock in. I'm also not super excited about having to order parts from outside the country (that includes the well respected Mesa cards.)

My current setup hardware is open source so I can have boards fabbed anywhere and even make them myself if needed, and the architecture is powered by relatively high performance standardized microprocessor modules (not Arduino) that are widely available locally from multiple suppliers including Amazon Japan which offers 4 hour delivery.

At some point, my hope is to really leverage the closed loop aspect and built in encoders of my drivers to closer approximate a servo setup. At least I want to use the encoder output to give a pseudo DRO and integrate the internal homing and soft endstop capabilities. There are still really serious fundamental differences between real servos and closed loop steppers, I'm not trying to claim any equivalence but there is more juice to be squeezed out of this architecture than just running them open ended.

 

[EmGo]

Lots of homebuilt machines out there making better parts than many 'professional' machinists running brand new hundred thousand dollar VMCs.

Do you actually believe this ? Just wondering how delusional people can get and still function ...

 

[atomarc]

So...Mr. Fish,

What have you actually done? You're telling us a whole lot about what you plan to do...have you actually done anything yet...drilled a hole or milled a slot, or anything? My experience is that these threads are all about CAD drawings and talk of which control board is best,etc, but when the rubber meets the road...it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

Show me something you have done, other than fix a bathtub!

Stuart

 

[Milland]

Do you actually believe this ? Just wondering how delusional people can get and still function ...

Don't start. You've not been helpful here, don't make it worse.

 

[EmGo]

Don't start. You've not been helpful here, don't make it worse.

Au contaire, monsewer, I've been very helpful. Tried to turn the direction from a silly $1,000 USD hobby-shop speshul self-congratulation session, the kind that is specifically banned here, to something more high-performance and interesting. The fish (who has never run an nc machine in his life) knew better. So fine.

But the crap I remarked on was pure delusion. "People with glued-together stepper-motor toys are outproducing experienced machinists with new $100,000 commercial VMC's."

Yeah. Right. Where can I get a ticket to this parallel universe, where the laws of physics do not apply ? I always wanted to leap tall buildings in a single bound ...

 

[Bakafish]

So...Mr. Fish,

What have you actually done? You're telling us a whole lot about what you plan to do...have you actually done anything yet...drilled a hole or milled a slot, or anything? My experience is that these threads are all about CAD drawings and talk of which control board is best,etc, but when the rubber meets the road...it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

Show me something you have done, other than fix a bathtub!

Stuart

Why ask a question that is so easily answerable by the information already provided? Regardless, I doubt anything I do or make will ever satisfy you and your ilk. I have nothing I need to prove to you or your gatekeeper friends, if someone can learn something, good or bad, from my experience then that's a success. I'm really not sure why you are all so willing to expose how threatened you are that, gasp, a mere hobbyist, might attempt something that you clearly think is your exclusive domain. You seem to have a real vested interest in my failure, or at least trying to destroy any evidence of such desecrating incursions on your sacred soil, not a great look.

You and your 'friends' keep trying to expose my clever scheme to... what exactly? What's my evil plan you are all so bravely protecting this 'poorly moderated' community from? I explained the reasoning for this post a long time ago, it had nothing to do with requesting anyone's help, I state that in literally the first sentence of this thread. You are clearly as addled about this fact as your pals. I've been answering sincere questions about my project, and about the challenges of such an endeavor where I live, and have been fortunate to receive some great input and support from the constructive members of this community. But to be very clear, I certainly haven't solicited any assistance here. Who is it you think you are saving, and from what? It feels a lot like my success will somehow make you feel like a failure, and that's sad. I feel sad for you.

I wonder how many times you guys are going to come in here and show everyone your true colors, the only ones being exposed here are you.

 

[cyanidekid]

Bakafish I think that was a clear and justified response, but humbly suggest you consider you have responded effectively and don't need to engage further, especially at the personal motivation level.

im finding your posting of the particular challenges you are facing, and your strategies to overcome them, very interesting myself. details of the Japanese used and surplus equipment market are fascinating as well, being so completely different from the USA.

if you were building a toaster I'd follow it with interest.

please continue with this post AND try your best not to waste your energy.

also,I'm with milland on the screw location.

P.S. eg ease up a bit there bucko!

 

[EmGo]

P.S. eg ease up a bit there bucko!

If I get any more eased I'll fall asleep ! But that comment that people are doing better work with aluminum extrusions bolted together and stepper motors than with a new $100,000 VMC was beyond ridiculous. Maybe Mill thought it was sensible but you can push these claims too far, yes ? We don't want to discredit ourselves that much ?