Honing machines and honing how to

[dkmc]

Starting a new thread after total hi-jack of dalmatiangirl61's thread. (Sorry guy).
So I've acquired a couple of machines in 2 auction lots, A Superior model AM and a Sunnen model MA. I also have had 2 other MA machines for years. Never ran one yet. Total noob. The auction lots are still on the trailer and waiting to come in the shop, get sorted,
cleaned up and set up.

Now a question for other more experienced honing enthusiasts....
I have a potential job that I have not a clue if it's feasible, so I am asking on this forum.
Material is 12L14 steel. Part OD 2" Overall length 9" ID size required 1.132 +.001 -.000
Is this doable?

Thanks for any and all constructive comments and suggestions

 

[Garwood]

While we wait for the pros to chime in-

I've found myself doing lots of hydraulic and dirt pin work the last couple years. I have invested in quite a few sizes of Sunnen and Ammco rigid hand hones. I've found it's not terribly tricky to get great results with a hone even when you don't know a lot about what you are doing.

The grit and lube are real important as well as enough pressure to cut. I've found WD40 is good enough for quick jobs and aerosol tap magic works great for tougher jobs. I have been using 70 grit stones to rough and 220 stones when I need to finish a hydraulic bore.

You figure out real quick that honing takes the tool marks out super fast, so you'll take out 2-3 thou the first 5 swipes and then you'll settle in for the long journey.

I recently had to fit new anti-wear 90MM sintered polymer-iron-aluminum bronze bushings to an oversized Cat excavator pin on site. I cut the bushings based on what I know about fits for hard steel Cat bushings, but I did not know that Cat went to a .030" press on the new fangled bushings. So when Mr. pin didn't fit I had to fix it. Took about 2 hours and a whole can of tap magic, but I honed out .02" of material out of those bushings with 70 grit stones.

I should add, I know Sunnen honing fluid is the right stuff, but portable honing usually isn't conducive to setting up a pump and tank. So for your machines buy the good fluid.

Also, when you change stones they won't cut evenly at first. I've heard mention of truing sleeves, but don't know how these are used. I find the stones settle in after a couple thou of material is removed from a larger bore, but before that you have to be careful about cranking up the pressure or the bore will start to taper.

 

[eKretz]

.030" interference?! Christ, that is a bit excessive. I always used a couple plastic tubs, some plastic to direct the oil flow back to them and a small pump to recirculate oil while honing. Keeping things well wetted really speeds up the work. And truing sleeves generally are used to get a new set of stones cutting nice and straight and the stones well formed to the bore size you're working on.

The 12L14 should be a walk in the park, just be careful how you hold it while honing so you're not squeezing the tube. It's pretty simple to get a straight honed bore, you can feel where it's tight or loose very easily.

 

[triumph406]

I've heard mention of truing sleeves, but don't know how these are used. I find the stones settle in after a couple thou of material is removed from a larger bore, but before that you have to be careful about cranking up the pressure or the bore will start to taper.

Truing sleeve is just a tube. The way I use them is to slather on the grit from the bottom of the pan onto the mandrel and stone. Then stroke inside the Truing sleeve. The grit from the pan will abrade both the stone and the mandrel. You can generally tell when the mandrel and stone is trued by the change in resistance required to hiold the truing sleeve. Sunnen Sleeves are steel, but you can make them from Aluminum/Brass/Bronze etc

If your honing a diamtere that isn't covered by a Sunnen sleeve, then best to make one to match the diameter, so the stone and mandrel are sized correctly.

 

[triumph406]

Material is 12L14 steel. Part OD 2" Overall length 9" ID size required 1.132 +.001 -.000
Is this doable?

Thanks for any and all constructive comments and suggestions

You'll need a P28 mandrel . The Sunnen catalog will tell you the mandrel part no and stones you need. Ebay likely may have one listed. For 12L14 Zinc shoes will be sufficient.

The Sunnen tech support is outstanding, so they could steer you to the right solution.

 

[triumph406]

I recently had to fit new anti-wear 90MM sintered polymer-iron-aluminum bronze bushings to an oversized Cat excavator pin on site. I cut the bushings based on what I know about fits for hard steel Cat bushings, but I did not know that Cat went to a .030" press on the new fangled bushings. So when Mr. pin didn't fit I had to fix it. Took about 2 hours and a whole can of tap magic, but I honed out .02" of material out of those bushings with 70 grit stones.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the abrasive is embedded into the bushing.

 

[Garwood]

.030" interference?! Christ, that is a bit excessive.

Yeah! That's what I thought. The owner was able to pull them in with 1" allthread and a 30 ton hollow enerpac. I can only speculate it has something to do with being sintered material and made up a weird mix of stuff including polymers. I cut about 60 thou out of them in the lathe and they stunk something terrible and flung a surprising amount of oil out of them.

If I knew how much of a PITA it was going to be I would have honed the old hard bushings for re-use.

 

[Garwood]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the abrasive is embedded into the bushing.

Me neither, but bushings get honed all the time. Piston pin bushings being a common one. The owner is good with a greasing stuff. He bought the machine used and immediately baselined it to like new.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

I only know Sunnen:
1) There is no substitute for honing oil, preferably Sunnen. Nothing else prevents galling and stone problems as well. Yes, I've fumbled along with DIY substitutes, but they're a far second. The stuff is expensive but if you're serious about getting decent results, you bite the bullet and buy it.
2) Truing sleeves can be pretty much any steel of the right size. You want your truing sleeve to be the same size as what you're going to hone, so the stones and shoes match up. You use the sleeve by honing it with just a bit of oil, then shut the oil off. The stones create their own grinding paste and everything wears in to perfect geometry. Sometimes, if you have enough parts, a sacrificial part makes a nice truing sleeve. Once the process is going, you shouldn't have to use truing sleeves often, if at all.
3) Follow the recommendations for stones and settings- they've been doing this for a while!
4) Be sure to set up a clamp and use the torque bar. Safety first!

 

[just Dave]

Starting a new thread after total hi-jack of dalmatiangirl61's thread. (Sorry guy).
So I've acquired a couple of machines in 2 auction lots, A Superior model AM and a Sunnen model MA. I also have had 2 other MA machines for years. Never ran one yet. Total noob. The auction lots are still on the trailer and waiting to come in the shop, get sorted,
cleaned up and set up.

Now a question for other more experienced honing enthusiasts....
I have a potential job that I have not a clue if it's feasible, so I am asking on this forum.
Material is 12L14 steel. Part OD 2" Overall length 9" ID size required 1.132 +.001 -.000
Is this doable?

Thanks for any and all constructive comments and suggestions

What surface finish is called out?

 

[Mud]

Superior model AM

Tennesee Abrasives too over the Superior product line. They had been supplying stones etc to Superior then took on the line of machines when Superior quit. They know what they are doing and will give good advice over the phone. We called with questions about honing the ID of ball bearings, they made up stones specifically for that job and sent them in short order, I was impressed with how fast and how inexpensively.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

2) Truing sleeves can be pretty much any steel of the right size. You want your truing sleeve to be the same size as what you're going to hone, so the stones and shoes match up.

How long do the trueing sleeves remain on size? I see used ones for sale, but have always wondered how close they are to the dimension written on the side.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

Used truing sleeves are usually worthless. They don't stay on size long and are only useful if you can then use them for the next size up.

 

[dkmc]

Thanks a million for the replies!
I'm going to answer back without all the quoting, I think it will be obvious which post the answers go with?
The 'tube' is 7/16 wall, so deforming should not be an issue.
Hopefully someplace in the avalanche of parts/pieces I'll have a P38 or one of the right size for the Superior.
Enough people have praised the Sunnen oil it makes me want to get some. Although I have a nearly full 5gal pail of
new Superior oil, that was included with the machine. I'll get the Sunnen eventually. I'm all ears on Truing Sleeves.

Surface finish.......wow. Longer story. This has been called out as a 1-1/8 'Drilled Hole' AKA.....+/-.015 tolerance.
I've been drilling the hole with an alied spade drill and it comes out .002 larger consistently. A piece of 1-1/8 12L14 (31.5" long) slides thru it into position, and gets welded. GETS WELDED. 1-1/8 call out also +/-.015. Inconsistency in the 1-1/8 bar OD has led to a bit of interference, but my parts are within tolerance. 'Engineer' steps in to 'fix' the problem, changes 'Drill' 1-1/8 to 1.132 +.001 -.000.
That'll fix it!

Ah.....The customer is (mostly) always right, so I'm exploring feasibility first before I offer a solution. My first thought is, you don't order Old Milwaukee, then change your choice to Makers Mark, but still pay for Old Milwaukee, so yes, there will be a price increase. Weather they know that or not at this point. And if I can do it mostly painlessly, and ad to the cost of the job, I'm happy to accommodate the 'clever' solution.
I'm looking forward to speaking with both Sunnen and Tenn. Abrasives at some point. I've downloaded from both of their websites.

Thanks!

 

[Dan from Oakland]

I've been using Sunnen hones for 40 years and have never worried about the size of my truing sleeve. Suppose I'm unique, but.... Yup, the Sunnen oil is great but I would not hesitate to use up your Superior Oil.
A good substitute for oil if you are in a bind is to use AW 32 hydraulic oil with a little solvent or paint thinner in it.
For your part, I would drill and ream it a few thou under your finish size, then hone it. Honing a drilled hole is not the best plan in my experience and will use up your hone stones quicker than necessary. For your size, mandrel size you may get away with an old diecast SL series mandrel. Stone options are limited but would work to get you going.

 

[dkmc]

I forgot, I'm not a total noob, just a horizontal 'machine' honing noob. Garwoods mention of Ammco rigid hand hones jogged my memory. A friends father had both Ammco and Sunnen hones, and I borrowed the Sunnen.
20? years ago, I needed to take a VW diesel block .020 ovesize, and already had experience doing one cylinder by hand (longer story of a missing top ring from the factory). Not fun. So I scrounged the junk pile, and found a part of a machine, an assembly of 2 parallel Thompson shafts with the Thompson bushings attached to a plate, and a rolled thread ball screw, all made up into essentially a slide with 30" travel.
Made a mount plate to bolt it to the deck vertically, rigged up a DC motor, controller, and adjustable limit switches. Drove the hone with a 1/2" electric drill. Tote and pump under the car on the floor. It worked way better that doing it by hand. I learned how even honing would cause taper in the bottom of the cylinder (for what ever reason I have no idea) and cheating the limit switch to keep the hone at the top more lessened the taper. Once it tapered, it would run, and it was a chore to get back on track. But all 4 cylinders did come out round and straight. I think each one took about 30 minutes to do. I wished I could have afforded diamond stones, but couldn't. It was a satisfying learning experience. I used solvent with a bit of Hyd oil in it. And now I wonder if I used Sunnen oil, would it have cut the time?

 

[guythatbrews]

Going from a drilled hole to .001 total is quite a change! If your part is 1 1/8 cold finished stock that seems pretty ridiculous, especially when the hole is .007 over nominal. As you say the customer is always right. But they don't always understand they gotta pay. They added a fair amount of work to the part. Maybe you could talk them into a little more tolerance and ream the hole.

Sunnen operators manual has some stuff about technique and setup, and they have other technicsl manuals too. Highly advise yiu reading that stuff. Seems like you should be able to just slap stuff together and hone but there is some method behind the madness.

As said call tech support. They will spec mandrel and stones for you. Easy enough with the catalog but maybe the first few times... Sunnen used to have knowledgeable outside reps that would come out and help, but I think the last time I did that was 10 years ago. He was a hell of a nice guy and knew his shit. Maybe that is still a free service and well worth the price!

Also as said a drilled finish isn't the best thing to start with, or any finish that's a little jaggedy. It wreaks havoc with stone and mandrel.

Good luck with your project. A 9" long part will take some physical work and some care not to get oil all over. Plan on setting up something to drain the oil from the parts overnight. If you have many to do you'll be happy to see the end of the day. Weird they would be welding 12L14, but no weirder than .001 total.

 

[dkmc]

Sunnen used to have knowledgeable outside reps that would come out and help, but I think the last time I did that was 10 years ago. He was a hell of a nice guy and knew his shit. Maybe that is still a free service and well worth the price!

I have to say, maybe 20? years ago, I'll never forget, a Sunnen salesman, younger guy, showed up at the shop. He seemed eager to sell me a new machine even before he knew if I had a use for one or not. I showed him my ancient MA machine, and he flat out announced that "it's obsolete, they don't make parts for those anymore, and none of the current tooling will fit in it". I raised my eyebrows just a bit. A speed shop buddy had told me a few years before, that all the tooling, mandrels, etc will fit in any age machine. I let the sales guy's spring wind down, and thanked him for the brochures he left, never saw him or heard anything again. A strange one. I actually called Sunnen the next day to confirm that tooling is available and still fits, they said yes. I didn't mention the sales dude.

 

[EmGo]

. A 9" long part will take some physical work and some care not to get oil all over.

With that long a part, definitely want to get or make one of them pan extension thingies. Otherwise, oil everywhere.

 

[just Dave]

It looks like Engineer negotiating is what you need to be working on. I don’t think a hone has any place in this job. Maybe the companies buyer can help you communicate the issue. Correlation between surface finish and tolerance is mistake often made by Engineers that do not fully understand machining. A close tolerance can not be properly achieved without a good surface finish unless you only measure the peaks of the tool marks, the valleys will be a few thou deeper. This subject is covered in the 16 edition of Machinery’s Handbook. Not so much in a newer edition I have.
This is easily a twist drill job. You can make the drill drill consistently oversized within reason with one slightly longer flute. I love an old Oliver drill pointer.
I ran a part similar for years, 2 1/2 sq x 10” with 1.753 -0 +.005. We ran it in a Gishult turret lathe no pilot hole is important to hold size and .009” feed as I recall.
I am sure they will reason with you when they tactfully understand . Good luck