Horsepower..???

[Bellaru433]

Well I had posted a Message regarding my rebuilt 1947 South Bend heavy 10 in regards to the gearbox slowing down and seizing up when in specific gears.. Anyway so I took the entire gearbox off and hooked it up to my drill motor and ran it through everything and it seems to be working fine with the exception that when the lower Tumblr knob is in the number one Hole it takes more power to push everything since that gear is the smallest in the rack ..This machine has a three-quarter horsepower motor on it that someone swapped out so he could plug it directly into 110 and get around having to deal with three phase..Is a 3/4 horsepower motor for a heavy 10 sufficient.. I have a newer toolroom heavy 10 (1985) and it has a 1 hp motor… I don’t know if they just upped everything as they got newer or this motor is insufficient..???

 

[Tony Quiring]

Is the motor good?

Wired correctly?

Wired for 240 but connected to 120?

Speed will be same but no torque.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[Laverda]

The heavy 10 of this vintage would have had a 3/4 HP motor when new. Now you could have problems with your motor and it's no longer making 3/4 HP.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

3/4hp should be adequate. Is there a run capacitor? Maybe its going bad?

 

[Bellaru433]

When I pulled the motor out I spun it by hand and the bearings seem to be fine and when there’s power to it it seemed to be OK.. I mean it sounded quiet ,,smooth,, it just seemed OK .. i have no idea if it’s just not pushing 3/4 of a horsepower anymore.. is there any way to tell if the motor is up to par while it’s on the machine,, Anyway to check the torque..Anyway to check the torq…?
As far as being wired correctly I wouldn’t even know if that’s what’s going on either I color-coded all the wires when I took the switch off because the drum switch has so many wires coming off of it like six of them,, and then six more coming from the motor,, Plus the three from the plug,, I wouldn’t even know where to begin with all that I just assumed that whoever did it before did it properly,, which I’ve come to learn in tearing these machines down that you never can trust what someone else has done.. I wouldn’t even know where to begin as far as checking if the motor is wired wrong.. if it’s wired for 220 and plugged into 110 will it still run…??
I just don’t know anybody who knows anything electrical..
What about the pulley on the motor I’m running on the largest of the 2 different sizes to choose from..(3 1/2”).. there’s one more smaller one on the inside of that about half the size…?
I appreciate all your help..

 

[Servicar rider]

I've had a heavy 10 for more than 40 years just like yours. Mine came new with a 110 volt 3/4 motor and it has always been adequate even at the highest speeds. Only problem I ever had was the contacts inside the motor went bad and had to be replaced. I'd say your motor is wired wrong? Sounds like you're wired for 220 instead of 110?

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

It should run on any pulley you put it on.

Yes, if wired for 220v, and plugged into 110v, it will run, but not have proper torque.

Your current testing sounds like something is wrong, if you want to make a science experiment out of it, do a search for "prony brake". Does the motor have a run capacitor? Can you provide pics of the data tag? Does it have wiring diagrams? There is plenty of info here on wiring drum switches, read it until you understand it, plan on reading multiple times

 

[BT Fabrication]

do you have an amp clamp to see what it is pulling amps at full load, if its more then the name tag, something is either wrong or its overloaded with something internally like bad bearings etc. ususally KW it is drawing converted over to HP ratings.

 

[Tony Quiring]

If it came from anyplace other than "home use" it is likely 220 volt.

If it does NOT have a plug on the cord but was hard wired more likely so.

The wiring outside the motor is not usually where the difference is, that is usually supply and control.

If motor is inside it will be difficult to see, but there should be a plate on the motor indicating how the internal wires are connected, and this shows for high an low voltage.

If reversible there will be extra wires from motor for that.

Easy thing is contact folks where this came from and ask them how it was connected and at what voltage.

If you are not comfortable working on the wiring and do not have an Amp meter then you may need to seek some local help.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[Bellaru433]

Yes when I bought the machine it supposedly was a restored heavy 10,, what I came to learn is that basically they had just thrown another paint job on it covering the 15 coats of previous paint and called it good to go,, since then I have completely disassembled every single nut,,bolt,,washer,, Wick,,gear ect and gone through every inch of this thing stripping everything down to bare metal primer new paint I changed out every gear that I thought wasn’t at least at 85%,, it was a Heavy 10 “R” and I swapped the spindle out for a beautiful 10 “L” with a larger spindle bore diameter,,The bearings are beautiful new lead screw,,new feed nuts and crossfeed/compound screws,, New worm gear,, Half nuts,, just everything,, and when it came to the motor everything was cleaned up nice under there with new counter shaft bearings and the motor already had been swapped out from the previous owner to this 110 3/4 hp in here now.. So like I said it seemed to run nice and smooth no issues with the bearings,,nice and quiet,, But I was amazed to see that Practically everything had issues with it and once again it was just another person dolling it up. With paint and playing it off as if it’s been restored..
now I’m down to the very end of it all and I have these issues with certain gears in the gearbox,, and like I said I have since removed the entire gearbox and just hooked my half inch drill motor to it battery powered at that,, and everything runs smooth with no issues at all as I filter through every gear position so I have no other place to look but to dig deeper into this motor issue.. and once again that’s something I know absolutely nothing about,, I don’t know anyone who could come give me a hand with it so I guess I’ll have to remove it and take it to some sort of a motor repair shop…!!
Thank you for all your help I appreciate it..

 

[Bob-J-H]

Where are you at in Ca?

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Yes when I bought the machine it supposedly was a restored heavy 10,, what I came to learn is that basically they had just thrown another paint job on it covering the 15 coats of previous paint and called it good to go,, since then I have completely disassembled every single nut,,bolt,,washer,, Wick,,gear ect and gone through every inch of this thing stripping everything down to bare metal primer new paint I changed out every gear that I thought wasn’t at least at 85%,, it was a Heavy 10 “R” and I swapped the spindle out for a beautiful 10 “L” with a larger spindle bore diameter,,The bearings are beautiful new lead screw,,new feed nuts and crossfeed/compound screws,, New worm gear,, Half nuts,, just everything,, and when it came to the motor everything was cleaned up nice under there with new counter shaft bearings and the motor already had been swapped out from the previous owner to this 110 3/4 hp in here now.. So like I said it seemed to run nice and smooth no issues with the bearings,,nice and quiet,, But I was amazed to see that Practically everything had issues with it and once again it was just another person dolling it up. With paint and playing it off as if it’s been restored..
now I’m down to the very end of it all and I have these issues with certain gears in the gearbox,, and like I said I have since removed the entire gearbox and just hooked my half inch drill motor to it battery powered at that,, and everything runs smooth with no issues at all as I filter through every gear position so I have no other place to look but to dig deeper into this motor issue.. and once again that’s something I know absolutely nothing about,, I don’t know anyone who could come give me a hand with it so I guess I’ll have to remove it and take it to some sort of a motor repair shop…!!
Thank you for all your help I appreciate it..

If you are in a smaller/remote community, there is most likely an electrician that should be able to figure this out for you, at a cost of coarse. If you are in or near a big city, and there is a motor repair shop, it might be easier and or cheaper to haul it into them, you will have to do some price checking.

Many times there is wiring info on the data tag, which you have not shown. If the lathe originally had a 3ph motor, the reversing drum switch may not be correct for single phase, or need some modification.

 

[Bellaru433]

I’m in Banning ,Which is 20 minutes east of San Bernardino and The same distance from Riverside,, I don’t know anyone so I usually take my machine up to what was a pretty big Electric Motor repair shop but I just found out yesterday when I called them back yesterday was their last day.. unbelievably there are no longer in business.. I just If it’s wired to 220 and plugged into 110 will it still spin the same RPMs (1750)..?
I guess you could just say that I’m looking for some other way to check this machine to make sure that it’s wired properly without having to rip everything out because there’s just no way I can check the torque/horsepower and as far as looking at the wiring diagram on the backside of the cover where the wires go in it might as well be written in Chinese because I don’t have a clue on what’s going on with that..!!
Once it’s mounted underneath the bell housing there’s just no way to see anything under there…

 

[Bob-J-H]

I was going to offer to help you, but you are too far from me, about 150 miles To answer your question, voltage does not affect rpm. That is determined by number of poles and frequency.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Motor wiring is not rocket science, I'm sure there are many websites and video tutorials on youtube, maybe do some studying and see what you can figure out. First step is figure out if its wired for 110 or 220, that info might be on your data tag, again, show us the data tag.

 

[Bellaru433]

Well I appreciate you offering but yes you’re right 150 miles is too far.. well I have figured out is that the lead screw coming out of the gearbox is obviously not at the same level as it is where it goes into the lead screw bracket on the far right because the gearbox only starts to jam up when the carriage is closest to the headstock,, as I move the carriage down Towards the tail stock everything starts to free up again meaning the closer to the gearbox starts to create a bind in the lead screw.. it seems that it’s not the motor strength at all and every time I would go to troubleshoot the different components like the banjo and the forward reverse gears etc. depending on where the carriage was located on the bed would determine whether it would seize the gearbox up,, that gearbox was replaced because the one that came on the machine was trash so I bought another One in better shape and went through the entire thing and rebuilt it and now it seems that it has to be slightly shimmed lowering it a little bit because it’s not the bearing/lead screw bracket at the end of the lead screw because what’s dictating how it’s seizing up is where it’s going through the worm gear and where the carriage is located on the bed so lowering or raising the bracket at the far end wouldn’t change anything it has to be lowered from the gearbox side.. has anyone out there ever had to shim up a single Tumblr gearbox… I know when I swapped out the apron I had to put a couple thousand shim under the gear rack so the hand wheel would run up and down the length of the bed smooth and that only came into play when I swapped aprons.. obviously you can’t inner change these parts and have everything just be right perfectly on the money.

 

[Bellaru433]

When the carriage is down near the tailstock I can spin everything with two fingers and not have a problem at all when I move the carriage to the headstock halfway there it will start to seize up and by the time it’s down at the table stock it isn’t moving at all so it can’t be the bracket at the far end and it can’t The apron and where the worm gear is located because the bed would have to be so worn out in order for it to lower it that much to create such a problem which isn’t the case at all it has to be the gearbox sitting too high… I have to admit I had gone through every single component taking the banjo and forward reversing gears off and putting it back together at least 10 times along with removing the gearbox more times than I want to admit and was ready to give up and just happened to stumble onto how everything changes depending on where the saddle is and how the slight amount of pressure pushing down on the lead screw the closer I got to the gearbox would start to jam everything up and keep it from spinning… what an ordeal..!!!
Has anyone out there ever had to modify where their gearbox sits…???

 

[JST]

I think you need a tie-breaker test.

Try measuring from the underside of the bed way to the leadscrew at both ends. See what you get. You might also measure the side-to-side location as well.

The issue is that how did anyone use it like that? Unless this is a "Frankenlathe", with parts taken from other machines and never run before the sale, it just seems unlikely that there would be a problem like the gearbox mounted wrong.

This is going to drift out of transformers and VFDs. If it needs much more consideration, you might restart up in antique machinery.

 

[Bellaru433]

Well it all started when I saw the machine on craigslist and what the guy did like so many others out there is slapped another paint job on top of the 16 other paint jobs and played it off as if he rebuilt the machine and when it got here the first thing I did was fire it up and try to shift gears and the gearbox was so trashed that it wouldn’t even shift so it all started there and since then I’ve gone through every single inch of this machine including buying a New gearbox completely rebuilding it,, I know for a fact there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that everything shifts beautifully and it’s just good to go and where this thread began was as I went to take it for a test run everything started seizing up when all of the components(gearbox banjo forward reverse gears spindle) all came into play as if I were using the lead screw for threading,, when all of those are out of the picture and just the spindle is operating there’s no issues at all but whenever I would go into threading mode with everything engaged it was barely spinning if at all and now I realize after thinking that it had to be the motors horsepower because all those components were fine I discovered that the gearbox is sitting A little too high based on the fact that when the carriage is closest to the headstock the worse it gets until it jams everything up,, moving the carriage down to the tail stock and everything is free with no issues so that lead screw is sitting in somewhat of a slight angle where as the carriage gets closer to the headstock it creates more and more of a bind and yes there are various parts from other lathes ,,, I had to buy a new apron ,, a new lead screw and then the gearbox I told you about,, the banjo was from another machine so even though these things are built to specs I’m sure that they are are fine tuned in someway or another meaning something gets a slight shim here or there.. but you’re right I need to find a happy medium in regards to this lead screw on the gearbox side and the bracket/bearing side ,,, but I did notice is that the bracket side of the lead screw was already shimmed up when I pulled the two screws out there was a shim someone made .065 thick and when I look at my 1985 heavy 10 which is in beautiful shape there is no shim on that bracket,,
This is been a really rough project,, going through this entire machine has really created some frustrating moments,, and like I said as you open these things up you’re just amazed at what you discover and what people have done during the course of the last 80 years..And these people buy these machines in which some of them are seriously trashed and part them out with every one of them saying that it was pulled from a perfectly good functioning machine rather than telling the truth in that half of them don’t even know how the machine was running and just feeding everybody A bunch of bull just to sell these parts… I mean check it out go on eBay and look at every component for sale and you’ll see every one of them says that it’s working fine.. as if you’re not going to discover what’s truly going on with it once you go through it… oh well it is what it is,, all I know is that it’s almost over with and I don’t think I’ll ever attempt to completely rebuild another one.. I don’t know what I would do if there wasn’t help from you guys out there to get me through some of this because sitting in this garage and living where I do there’s just nowhere else to turn when you need help… again thank you all..

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Can you swap the guts of the new box into the housing of the old box? Maybe that would get alignment right?